The Pacific

[Michael Emrys]

PC language.

I didn't notice that. What I did notice in the first episode were a couple of instances of what seemed to me to be suspiciously anachronistic. One was repeated use of 'motherf***er' which I am skeptical was in common usage during that decade, although I am willing to be enlightened on that score. The '40s equivalent, which was used very frequently was 'sonofabitch'. That apparently was held to be the worst thing you could call a man.

The second was 'take a number', meaning get in line. That's another one I personally don't recall hearing before the late '60s, though that may just reflect my personal experience.

Anyway, these were clinkers to my ears and for me interrupted my concentration for a moment.

Michael

[gunnergoz]

I have to agree with Michael about the ahistorical language, though examples fail my tired brain right now, I know that there were a couple of times I flinched while watching the episodes so far...flinched because of jarringly anachronistic language or slang.

Perhaps one example was the "load and lock" phrase used on the amtracs before they hit Peleliu. I was raised in the 1950's US army and I never heard that phase used by my staff sergeant father in his 20+ years in service, including RVN. I think the phrase is a revision of "lock and load" which is a modern favorite in war genre films...again, I never heard it even in my own (albeit limited) military experience on the gun line (under Marine DI's, even.) I understand the phrase may have some ancient roots in matchlock technology or somesuch, but the film industry seems to love it and consequently beats it to death.

I also agree with the too-often used MF phrase...my recollections of the era was that SOB was much more common.

All in all though, I still am enjoying the series. It is a worthy, if somewhat flawed, effort. We are better off for it and at least the current generation will get some glimmer of what it was like for their grandfathers, etc.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

I haven't started viewing the series yet but I'm assuming they're being all PC by not using the terms "Nips" or "Japs" when referring to the enemy? I know from my experience with my father who actually flew in WWII as a Mosquito pilot in Europe, he never held any prejudices against Germans after the war but he sure as hell did against the Japanese despite never having fought against them!

I'm sure he wasn't the only one either so I would have thought authentic slang should be used in keeping with the times, provided they're not downright in your face offensive like "N**ger" when referring to native Africans etc.

Regards

KR

[JonS]

I haven't started viewing the series yet but I'm assuming they're being all PC by not using the terms "Nips" or "Japs" when referring to the enemy?

You assume wrong.

downright in your face offensive like "N**ger" when referring to native Africans etc.

I doubt the niggers could care less if the Japanese are referred to as Japs or Nips.

[Tero]

You assume wrong.

My PC remark is not about what they call the enemy. It is the general attitude. AFAIK period American soldiers viewed the Japanese as less than human and that does not reflect in the series.

I doubt the niggers could care less if the Japanese are referred to as Japs or Nips.

What about the dog, the name of which was in the chopping block when they started dreaming up the new movie about the Damnbusters (?) ?

[Tero]

By Pak40

This is an overstatement.

Depends on your POV.

I just watched a Japanese war movie about a sub (I-77 ?) vs an US destroyer and in it the action and behaviour was less than convincing. For example the Japanese sank a tanker and surfaced near the destroyer picking up survivors and there was no firefight. Also, a Japanese sailor made a speach about how the enemy are humans too. All in all the movie was well done but the story line sucked big time in its contemporary PC gumbayaa which had nothing in common with the way period people behaved and had been indoctrinated.

This is not what I got out of the scene at all. I think the two guys watching were appalled that their fellow Marine did such a thing. Yet at the same time they knew why the Marine did what he did. Chalking this off to "casually shrugging off a war crime" is gross misinterpretation of the scene.

What was the purpose of the scene in general ? **** happens in combat and as a result people go off the bend on a regular basis. Believe me, I will be appropriately and similarly indignant when a similarly gruesome Japanese war crime gets a similarly understanding treatment in the series.

Also, you may be aware that this is based on Sledge's own memoirs, so it maybe this is filmed exactly as it happened. (I personally haven't read his book yet so maybe I'm wrong about this)

I do believe the incident really occurred. I just wonder what purpose did it serve vis-a-vis the story. The suicide scene worked far better in support of the theme of the episode.

I'm not exactly sure what you want to see here. These battle scenes are based on the experiences of the 3 main characters in the series.

Which all happened to take place in the dead of the night ? How convinient, considering how they cut down production costs.

The Japanese really did use these human wave banzai attacks repeatedly.

No contest.

Do you want them to show ahistorical battle scenes or scenes mimicking 50s hollywood movies which we know are all inaccurate or cliches?

From what I have read about the campaing as seen so far in the series not all the fighting happened in the dead of night.

I guess the last episode showing marine's heads and limbs being blown off didn't get your attention?

The unit depicted in the series has suffered surprisingly few casualties so far. Given the historical attrition rate of the marine units.

Yea, I agree. Stupid girls should not be in the series because they had nothing to do with these soldier's lives during the war. [insert sarcastic emoticon here]

Girlie plot story line is not about girls. It is how the characters are being a bit of pufters for example reading their mail aloud all the time during lulls in the fighting.

I guess a little heavy metal distorted guitar would have gone with the Marine's beach landing a little better.

Nah. In fact Benny Goodman would do better.

I fail to see how this parallels Iraq. Maybe you can enlighten us?

A general feel of the series and how the story is being developed.

Whenever a contemporarily sensitive issue (like combat casualties etc) is depicted the feel of the scenes is just off. BoB seemed more true to life in that respect.

The shrink in the hospital for example was not a convincing character as his behaviour was too modern compared to what was known about PTSD, shell shock, whatever you call it and how it was treated at the time.

And I would think that he would not have needed to be bribed with a Nambu to get a man back to his unit as soon as he was "cured". Then again US Navy mental medical care may just have been better than what the US Army had arranged for the paras (who did not seem to suffer from other than trench foot).

[Affentitten]

I just watched 1 &2. There were a few references to "yellow monkeys" and "yellow apes".

Speaking of anachronisms, there was a scene where blowjobs were mentioned. I would have thought that was right out of the wildest imaginations of most 18 year old virgins of the time.

As for war crimes, ask any veteran of the Pacific how many Japanese prisoners his unit took. It was no Old Etonian tea party.

[mididoctors]

I just watched 1 &2. There were a few references to "yellow monkeys" and "yellow apes".

Speaking of anachronisms, there was a scene where blowjobs were mentioned. I would have thought that was right out of the wildest imaginations of most 18 year old virgins of the time.

As for war crimes, ask any veteran of the Pacific how many Japanese prisoners his unit took. It was no Old Etonian tea party.

1930's US prostitute slang apparently.. which I doubt would be something the marine corp would not pick up on.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

I just watched 1 &2. There were a few references to "yellow monkeys" and "yellow apes".

Speaking of anachronisms, there was a scene where blowjobs were mentioned. I would have thought that was right out of the wildest imaginations of most 18 year old virgins of the time.

As for war crimes, ask any veteran of the Pacific how many Japanese prisoners his unit took. It was no Old Etonian tea party.

But wouldn't the very low prisoner count also be because of the shame that the Japanese felt if they were captured? From my understanding the Japanese generally preferred death with honour (including suicide if the situation was hopeless) rather than be captured and dishonour the family name, not to mention letting the emperor down!

I'm sure that war crimes were committed by the Allies but the very low prisoner rate wouldn't be solely attributable to these acts.

Regards

KR

[Michael Emrys]

Speaking of anachronisms, there was a scene where blowjobs were mentioned. I would have thought that was right out of the wildest imaginations of most 18 year old virgins of the time.

I'm not so sure. Consider: Legal abortions were virtually unavailable and unmarried pregnancies were considered a serious black mark on a girl's reputation in those days. Contraceptive measures were uncertain and besides, a girl might consider it in her best interests to remain a virgin, at least technically. So, in order to reach a compromise with her boyfriend's libido, blow jobs and hand jobs were quite common. "Real sex" was postponed until a wedding date had been set.

Michael

[MeatEtr]

So, in order to reach a compromise with her boyfriend's libido, blow jobs and hand jobs were quite common.

Michael

No wonder the old gals can gum it so well.

[vincere]

Anybody in the UK without a sky subscription- it's on sky 3 free view tonight. Double episode starts at 9 pm.

[gunnergoz]

Well, the script for episode 7, Peleliu, almost exactly followed Sledge's memoirs...for better or for worse. I was deeply impressed. This is no BoB but then the Pacific was not the ETO either. I'm a bit surprised that no one else has seen fit to comment on the topic in over a week. Bored with it already?

I have to admit having shown my wife episode 2 of BoB just to give her an impression of what WW2 was like from the American GI's perspective (she, having been raised in the old USSR, has had to absorb a lot of new history since we were married, something I encouraged.) But this episode of The Pacific is just too over the top for me to try to show her and to explain to her...too graphic, too barbaric, too horrifying. Not that I need to justify anything happening on screen, but it is hard enough to watch what I've read about unfolding in front of my eyes, to try to distill the back story in any meaningful way. Perhaps one of the earlier episodes, though...I'll have to see the entire series through and try to figure out if there is some one episode that would be a reasonable way to introduce her to our experience in the war against Japan; something the old Soviet system totally glossed over. (She was taught the Japanese surrendered because Russia entered the war, and we threw nukes at the Japanese out of spite in some form of inhuman experiment. She'd never even been taught about Pearl Harbor. Tora, Tora, Tora and Victory at Sea were helpful learning tools for her in that respect.)

[JonS]

Episode 3: 'Melborne' was on here the other day. Overall so far, The Pacific is a weirdly disconnected story - it seems to me that the series is lacking an overriding narrative. It's quite episodic, with no apparent feed forward. Granted its a True Story, or rather two or three True Stories mashed together, rather than a novel, but without some kind of narrative it's like watching a slide show. A gorgeously produced slideshow, to be sure, but still a slide show.

Also, the passage of time is confusing. How long were they on Guadalcanal? Dunno. How long were they in Melborne? Dunno.

One question; at the start of 'Melborne' Hanks did a voice over to set the scene. That wasn't done for the two episodes ... is that because it just wasn't there, or because the channel broadcasting it trimmed that bit off?

Edit: no wonder it seems disconnected - the three main characters were never in the same regiment.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Please tell me they didn't spell Melbourne without the "u". That would be like spelling Miami as Myami. If true, that is really piss poor!

Regards

KR

[Stalins Organ]

I'm sure they would only leave outthe "u"to add color........

But no - they do not - only Jon does so

[JonS]

That would be like spelling Miama as Myami.

Tell me, where is this place called "Miama"?

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Yeah, good point. Problem 'solvered'.

Regards

KR

[MeatEtr]

That was quite a scene when Sledgehammer went to try and pry out the japs gold teeth. Then the other Marine who had already did it told him not to because of germs. Seemed like an excuse to perhaps keep Sledge from crossing a line. He reacted with a little anger and I could just feel him wanting/trying to disconnect himself from that hellhole. It was a great scene.

Now I need to read the book. Speaking of which, maybe somebody who has read it could shed some more light on that scene.

[gunnergoz]

MeatEtr - I recently finished Sledge's book and episode 7 especially draws heavily from it...and very faithfully. I was actually surprised to see the scene with the "pebbles thrown into the skull" depicted - I'd figured it was TOO graphic. Apparently not. And the part where Sledge goes to extract gold teeth is in the book as well. Without doing some further research, I do think that the film takes a little liberty with the timing of certain events, but all the individual anecdotes are in Sledge's wartime account. As for the buddy telling him not to stoop to pulling teeth, I may be wrong but I think it was a medic buddy and not "Snafu." From the book, it was clear that whoever told Sledge not to do it, was attempting to preserve some of his inherent humanity and what little remained of Sledge's youthful innocence. Sledge was so young at the time that, it seems to me, he may have been regarded (fondly) as a bit of a mascot to some slightly older Marines. In any event, it is clear that Sledge was glad later that he did not cross that line into barbarism and have to live with the memory for the rest of his life. There is a lot to read in between the lines in his book.

Now if I can only find Leckie's book and the authorized biography of Basilone...they have been reissued so it should not be too hard.

[JonS]

Now if I can only find Leckie's book and the authorized biography of Basilone...they have been reissued so it should not be too hard.

Cripes - 'shouldn't be too hard' is a bit of an understatement. You can't move in bookshops here at the moment without tripping over piles of all three!

[MeatEtr]

MeatEtr - I recently finished Sledge's book and episode 7 especially draws heavily from it...and very faithfully. I was actually surprised to see the scene with the "pebbles thrown into the skull" depicted - I'd figured it was TOO graphic. Apparently not. And the part where Sledge goes to extract gold teeth is in the book as well. Without doing some further research, I do think that the film takes a little liberty with the timing of certain events, but all the individual anecdotes are in Sledge's wartime account. As for the buddy telling him not to stoop to pulling teeth, I may be wrong but I think it was a medic buddy and not "Snafu." From the book, it was clear that whoever told Sledge not to do it, was attempting to preserve some of his inherent humanity and what little remained of Sledge's youthful innocence. Sledge was so young at the time that, it seems to me, he may have been regarded (fondly) as a bit of a mascot to some slightly older Marines. In any event, it is clear that Sledge was glad later that he did not cross that line into barbarism and have to live with the memory for the rest of his life. There is a lot to read in between the lines in his book.

Now if I can only find Leckie's book and the authorized biography of Basilone...they have been reissued so it should not be too hard.

Ah ok, that guy was SNAFU, I had forgotten his name. Yeah the pebbles in the skull thing was pretty nasty. Thanks for the info from the book.

By the way, why are the old Marines called "The Old Breed", I mean besides the obvious reason that they are older.

[JonS]

I've never read the book, but I've always taken it as Old Breed = pre-War regulars (vice New Breed = enlistments after 07 Dec 41)

[Michael Emrys]

I've never read the book, but I've always taken it as Old Breed = pre-War regulars (vice New Breed = enlistments after 07 Dec 41)

Sledge explicitly includes any veterans of Guadalcanal and Cape Gloucester in that definition.

Michael

[Stalins Organ]

So the old breed are the ones ho actually had to fight with Springfields then?