AFV and armour guide released!

[hcrof]

After a short Beta, I have finally finished my AFV and armour guide!

Features include:

- Protection levels for every vehicle in the game given in RHEe vs KE and CE

- Main gun penetration statistics for every vehicle in the game at a variety of ranges

- Penetration statistics and maximum/effective ranges for every infantry AT weapon

- Colour coded numbers for ease of use

It should be noted that first of all, this guide is not definitive, it is a simplified version of my interpretation of a fictional computer game. I am not trying to pass off any of this information as fact!

Secondly, all values are averages. While the front turret of a T-90 might be rated at 1340mm the ERA only partially covers the surface and a tandem warhead will defeat it anyway. Because of this there will be areas which are significantly weaker, leading to the so called 'golden BB' shot.

All vehicles are vulnerable to this but it becomes more and more apparent when the size of the round increases. A 115mm round is far more likely to be a lucky shot than a 12.7mm bullet!

Hopefully this guide will help both players and scenario designers by giving a clear idea of exactly what each vehicle and weapon is capable of, it will pop up on the repository soon!

[hcrof]

Oh yeah, the issue was raised ages ago but autocannons still have a habit of using HE not APDS against IFVs. Particularly noticeable was the Warrior shooting HE at BMPs and struggling to knock them out and LAVs shooting at Strykers with equally poor results. Im sure there are more combos out there but it doesn't affect every vehicle.

(Ive spent a lot of time on the firing range )

[MikeyD]

Where's it located? Did you drop it into Repository?

[stoex]

Hi hcrof,

Am just checking out your guide, very useful and enlightening, thanks! A few issues and questions have popped up for me, however:

1.) Your chart shows a penetration value of 600 for "Challenger 2 HEAT" as well as a value of 430 for the HESH round. AFAIK the Challys don't carry any actual HEAT rounds, only APFSDS and HESH, at least in the game. Am I wrong?

2.) Why is the Scimitar classified as a tank?

3.) In the section on inf AT weapons, a legend of sorts might be advisable to clarify that the "T" note under some weapons signifies a tandem warhead. Took me a while to figure that out...

Cheers and thanks for your work on this!

[John Kettler]

stoex,

The Wiki shows ammo types as CHARM 3 APFSDS, L 31 HESH and L 34 WP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_2

Regards,

John Kettler

[stoex]

John,

What I thought - which is why I wonder where hcrof's 600mm penetrating HEAT round comes from.

Any groggery regarding the Scimitar? As far as I'm concerned, classifying it as a tank is tantamount to classifying a TUM as an APV...or a Toyota pickup, for that matter!

[vincere]

Very helpful, Thanks.

[hcrof]

Hi stoex, thanks for the correction - I'm hoping more will come in the future!

1) The guide has been updated on my computer, when I get some more corrections I will upload v1.1

2) I had to have a think about that but at the end of the day the MoD calls it a tank. Also, by putting it there, you get to see how well the RARDEN gun works at 2km so it provides more information.

3) Probably a good point, the 'T' additions were a bit of a rush at the end. To be fair though, at some point I will make the whole thing more user freindly when I integrate it into the community strategy guide.

[Gen. J-sun]

There are some inconsistant sections. I don't have my notes with me, however, some weapons such as the AT5 armed armored cars have large penetration values of 7-800 while the AT5 itself is shown as somewhere around 500.

[hcrof]

Not with you there im afraid. Do you mean the BRDM-2 with the AT-5?

No other vehicle uses that weapon and it is not an infantry weapon. BMPs tend to use a varient of the AT-4 in the game.

[Damian90]

Ok, M1's M829A3 in western estimates gives 765mm RHA at 2km or 850mm RHA at 2km, Russians estimated it as 795mm RHA at 2km, so safe estimate will be 800mm RHA at 2km (based at my friends estimations).

FV4034 Challenger 2 is using by Your guide L28 with 770mm RHA at 2km, but from my knowledge, primary APFSDS ammo is still L27 wih 720mm RHA at 2km.

M1's lower hull should be (if You take consider on max estimated protection) 650mm and glacis 590mm vs. KE.

Turret front for M1A1HC and M1A2 should be same, about 900mm vs. KE and 1620 vs. CE, for M1A1SA and M1A2SEP it should be for both, 960mm vs. KE and 1620mm vs. CE. Side hull of M1 also have bigger protection in the forward half of vehicle, where are fuell cells providing extra protection against HEAT and heavy balistic skirts. CR2 in Telic variant also have same side hull protection as Enchanced one, skirts are the same, because enchanced variant in game is an early one, without redesigned side hull heavy skirts. Also it would be nice if You add M1 tanks with T.U.S.K. :-)

T-90SA turret sides are max 80mm RHA plate, rear plate is also about 80mm RHA. Same goes for the rest of T-72 family, but there are cast turrets, so thickness will be smaller further rear, and bigger if You look further to front of turret.

For the rest it is preatty good... I say more, great guide, You think to wrote in it more info's about equipment in vehicles and etc.

[c3k]

hcrof,

Thank you! This a great idea and it's in an easy format to interpret.

Thanks,

Ken

[hcrof]

Thanks for the input Damian90, I had great trouble with the tanks because their armour is so variable. AFV's were easier because of more consistent armour protection. All I had to do was fire 50 rounds of autocannon fire at them from various ranges and see if the crew bailed (ok a little more complicated than that!)

Side armour values are particularly difficult because the front third of the tank is always much better protected than the rest - I tended to take a pessimistic view of the armour there. Elsewhere I have tried to go for an 'average' value.

About the CR2 enhanced, while in real life the side protection may be the same, it appears that in the game it is not. The enhanced versions stats are a result of a comparison on a firing range.

Side Turrets of the T-72 family are an 'average' value but if people think it would be better, I could reduce it to 80mm.

Finally, you are right - I forgot the T.U.S.K M1! I will add it later

[Alex]

Maybe it'll be more clear to understand, if grenades for RPG call by names:

RPG-7

85mm - PG-7V

93mm - PG-7VL

105mm - PG-7VR

PG - 'Protivotankovaya granata' (antitank grenade)

http://www.world.guns.ru/grenade/gl02-e.htm

and just for information:

RPG-16 - PG-16

RPG-29 - PG-29V

[LuckyDog]

It's a very interesting guide - thank you. I couldn't quite follow if you had obtained the armour values from CMSF directly or from sources on the web (and validated the latter somehow against the game). Could you clarify this for me please?

To follow on - if you got this from CMSF, any ideas on why it appears that the Abrams armour stats icons (big plus sign) look better than the Challys?

[hcrof]

Armour stats in CMSF are wierd - In my testing I have learned to take them with a big grain of salt.

The stats for tanks are mainly real world stats with a little bit of testing (so may be wrong - certainly debatable!) but the stats for IFVs tend to be firing range estimates (so are more accurate). The problem with tanks is that their armour tends to be very variable (and what rounds they fire are not obvious) so it is difficult to estimate things based on firing range stats. IFVs were easier. I had a benchmark - the RARDEN gun, and used it to compare most of the vehicles.

(hope that makes sense, I just came back from the pub)

[LuckyDog]

Yes - that makes sense - thanks.

[sfhand]

Just wanted to chime in to express my gratitude for your sharing of this information. Thanks!