SPI Infomercial from the late 70s

[Wilhammer]

Some of you all might know this already - it has been making the news at CSW and BGG for a couple of days.

[huhr]

Wow, that was an interesting find. I still have an old Wargame from Avalon Hill called Crete and Malta. I had Tobruk but that disappeared somewhere along the way and I also had Afrika Korps and the same thing happened. Don't loan anything to anyone unless your willing to never see it again!!! Darn! By the way, I bought Tactics 2 on Ebay a few years ago, good condition, sold my solitaire victory game called Ambush

I still have 3 games from 360 from the V for Victory series (computer-3.5" floppies)

[tooz]

Yep, that is cool! I still have some of those SPI magazines without the included games (which I discarded foolishly for lack of storage space). That huge game that those guys are playing has to be WESTWALL. I once saw that game being played at an old "Origins" convention many years ago. I never knew if they had time to finish it. I noticed that none of those players used a "dice cup" or "tower". I wonder how many errant rolls wiped out stacks of units on those old creased maps.

Yep, board games, I still have some Avalon Hill games and recently have been getting back into Advanced Squad Leader. By the turn of the century I had begun playing PC games more and ASL less, now I am rekindling my love of "pushing cardboard". The biggest drawback I have now is that my aging eyes get tired reading all of those counters.

Thanks Wilhammer for posting that.

[Sergei]

Hah, those guys smoking cigarettes at the game table... not a sight I would imagine seeing nowadays, at least not near any games of mine!

[Wilhammer]

They are playing War in Europe - Westwall was one of the quads.

For me, PC gaming is now a rarity - I am full bore back into boardgaming conflicts, and of my 250+ games, half of them are SPI titles.

[Michael Emrys]

...of my 250+ games, half of them are SPI titles.

Same here. A few years back I gave away my collection of S&Ts that covered a span of about ten years. Most of them still had the games. It was a sad parting and I kind of wish I hadn't, but I had run out of room to store them and something had to go.

I kind of have mixed feelings about SPI anyway. They broke a lot of ground and were definitely a major driving force in the evolution of the hobby, but taken individually a lot of their game really weren't so hot. But then again, a not insignificant number were hot. In retrospect, I think pushing so many games out the door—including quite a few that should never have made it all the way to the press—in the end cost them a whole lot of money. The cost of printing and storing so many non-sellers may have been the margin that drove the original company under. Cest la vie, cest la guerre.

Michael

[Dave H]

They are playing War in Europe - Westwall was one of the quads.

For me, PC gaming is now a rarity - I am full bore back into boardgaming conflicts, and of my 250+ games, half of them are SPI titles.

As another old-timey wargamer I'd really be curious why you and and Michael have decided to return to the cardboard games. Is it for the social time spent with other gamers? The incredible diversity of the wars covered? The degree of control/micromanagement of your units they allow? Maybe just the tactile feel of the counters and charts and dice? :confused: :confused: :confused:

I respect wargame grogs who have the time and attention span to deal with a zillion counters and maps bigger than my living room. Personally I thought Squad Leader and almost everything from SPI were hugely boring back in the '70s and I would never play them now with games like CMBB and CMAK on the computer. The only printed wargame I still own is Up Front because I liked it so much better than anything else available back whenever I got rid of my other 100 or so games. I can't remember the last time I played it.

[Michael Emrys]

As another old-timey wargamer I'd really be curious why you and and Michael have decided to return to the cardboard games.

Speaking for myself, I haven't actually played a boardgame In over 15 years.

Is it for the social time spent with other gamers?

I rarely played against another player. Nearly all of my good friends were not into wargaming, hardly into gaming of any sort. Most of the people I knew who were into wargaming were weird creeps that I didn't want to hang out with a lot. I don't claim that this was necessarily typical of wargamers as a species, just the luck of the draw I guess.

The incredible diversity of the wars covered?

That was certainly part of it, although I was mostly interested in WW II all along. But one of the most fun games I ever played was Conquistador, which was a game about the colonization of the Americas. I would have loved to play 1776, but its combat resolution process did not lend itself well to solitaire play.

The degree of control/micromanagement of your units they allow?

That part was actually a pain in the neck...literally. What I did like was games that came with well-written and comprehensive rule books. That way you knew what was going on and why and if you disagreed with the designer's interpretation of history it was easy to substitute your own home brewed rules. I really miss that in computer games.

Maybe just the tactile feel of the counters and charts and dice?

I don't think so, although there was always a thrill on opening the box of, say, a GDW game and seeing the huge number and variety of counters, and then examining the charts for clues to what the designer considered vital to game play. But the maps and charts and all took up a large space and they were laid out for sometimes not only days but weeks at a time, during which they were in the way of other activities as well as subject to accidents that could undo hours of work.

Playing on a computer is far more convenient as well as physically more comfortable. You can save a game in progress and do other things on your computer, then return to the game at your leisure, taking up where you left off. And it's nice having an AI to play against so that I don't have to play both sides. But I wish it were not necessary to be a hacker in order to change a rule. Heck, it would be nice even to know what rules the game is being played by and the reasons behind those choices.

Michael

[hoolaman]

I was too young to get into serious board wargaming stuff like this, but god that looks tedious. Surely the only reason you'd set out all that stuff and take hours to resolve one turn is because computers hadn't been invented yet.

[Michael Emrys]

Surely the only reason you'd set out all that stuff and take hours to resolve one turn is because computers hadn't been invented yet.

Heh. Computers had been around for a long time by the time board wargaming took off as a hobby in the early '60s. There were even a small number of wargames written for computers but these were for large institutional computers. It was a couple more decades before personal computers showed up on the market and hobby games were programmed for them.

But for those of us who had grown up on movies and documentaries about WW II, the sudden appearance of board wargames was almost magical. We could—at least in our own imaginations—stand in the boots of the great generals and try to outdo their performances. The spell that cast was well worth whatever tedium and downright physical exhaustion it cost. In short, it was fun!

Michael

[Dave H]

Speaking for myself, I haven't actually played a boardgame In over 15 years.

(snip)

Michael

I misinterpreted your post. You certainly didn't say you were playing boardgames, just that half of your boardgames were from SPI. My mistake. :o

[John Kettler]

Wilhammer,

What a hoot, and did it ever bring back a lot of memories (including Sorcerer, which I didn't own but had that bizarre Easter egg colored board)! I got started with AH's Tactics II when I was 12, but I was never the same after I discovered SPI was covering future combat in Europe. Played a lot of Red Star White Star, Mech War 77 and Fire Fight, and some Foxbat vs. Phantom (remember the optional rules for dragons and UFOs, not to mention how difficult it was to keep the Foxbat on the board?), even SimCan's Seapower & The State but pretty much gave up when I finally got Mech War 85, with its two daunting rule books in fine print. Who could forget Dunnigan's tactical nuclear simulator of soaking the map in lighter fluid, then igniting it? Speaking of whom, I own several of his books. By then, my gaming buddies were a lot busier and there were other gaming options. Played lots of the SPI historical titles, though, through a gaming group a guy named Tom Coveny ran in Hawthorne, California. Part of my interest in the Cold War stuff was that it helped me gain insights useful to me in my then job as a Soviet threat analyst, for I had repeatedly "fought" what others had only read about. BTW, SPI cheated on Firefight. The maps were of Ft. Leavenworth, tweaked to make them ATGM friendly by removing guidance wire eating brush, wire shorting power lines and many water obstacles. Naturally, this favored the faster, more accurate TOW! I still have Patrol, Firefight and a few others, including Siege of Tyre. Passed Seapower to my Harpoon designing brother, Ed and sold Mech War 85 years ago. Unsurprisingly, I grabbed the entire GDW Assault series, including the Suvorov Reinforcement mod, but lost my gaming circle when most of the guys moved away. We played SSN until the counters wore out. And I can remember licking my chops over the Victory Games Fleet series, highly topical to someone then involved in analyzing Phoenix missile effectiveness in Fleet Air Defense for the manufacturer Hughes. Never did get to play any. Too busy with 30 semester units of college while working full time, and the VG titles cost too much money. Was being reimbursed, but only after each semester, so it was a lot of money up front. ISTR I also got to play SimCan's Raketny Kreyser. Played quite a bit of AH's Attack Sub while in Virginia and wrote an expansion module and new scenarios for it with a buddy of mine, Kevin McCormack. Was published in The General, at the behest of another friend, Don Hawthorne, then helming the magazine. Kevin and I have a long running clash with another SPI title, Shiloh.

Still have Tobruk and add-ons from The General, and I well remember the consternation of players who used no logic and opened fire from max range, then screamed because they weren't hitting anything. This resulted in adding firing doctrine to the game. Tobruk was an operational analysis of combat in the Western Desert, as rigorous as designer Hal Hock could make it. Naturally, I played the AH classics (lots of Midway, Bulge and Richthofen's War), won a WS&IM tournament (loved Yaquinto's closely related Ironclads) and was thrilled with the games COI, SL and finally, Up Front. ASL was too daunting--on a bunch of levels. I vividly remember seeing a guy show up at the TRW gaming club with an entire wheeled carryall consisting of multiple game boxes, clear boxes full of counters and about ten fat 3-ring binders. Talking 3 foot stack! When I saw the counter stacks as the game was being played, I gagged, and the money was just ridiculous.

Memories!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Michael Emrys]

BTW, SPI cheated on Firefight. The maps were of Ft. Leavenworth...

ISTR that Dunnigan himself mentions that somewhere. The game was originally designed on contract to the Army and I think the idea was that trainees could play a scenario in the game and then go try it out in the field over the same terrain. Or maybe vice versa.

Michael

[John Kettler]

Michael Emrys,

Not only was SPI's production plan way too ambitious, but it made a fatal deal with Gary Gygax for a bridge loan. Barely was the ink dry on this ill conceived document when Gary called the loan, sinking SPI. Karma bit him squarely on the backside years later when he got gobbled up himself. As for where Dunnigan talked about the Firefight skullduggery, I think it was in his book on wargaming. If not, maybe years later in S&T.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Wilhammer]

Social and wide topics - also, I have a War Room - separate apartment above a garage on my property.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/images/user/143148/wilhammer/page/1?username=Wilhammer

[John Kettler]

Wilhammer,

What a terrific setup you have! How nice it must be to be able to set up a game, play some turns, then simply be able to leave it for next time. Am curious, though, as to how you keep the cat from going walkabout on your game map? Have read and heard numerous reports of such feline triggered wargame disasters.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Blackhorse]

We're all going to roadtrip to Wilhammers from some wargaming goodness!!

What's your game of choice Wilhammer?

[John Kettler]

Blackhorse,

For a quick game of Drang Nach Osten!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Michael Emrys]

...a quick game of Drang Nach Osten!

There is no such thing as a quick game of DNO. Unless you mean by "quick" just under six months!

Michael

[Pak_43]

"Who could forget Dunnigan's tactical nuclear simulator of soaking the map in lighter fluid, then igniting it?"

Surely, the strategic nuclear exchange option presented in "NATO" by Dunnigan wasn't it?

[Michael Emrys]

"Who could forget Dunnigan's tactical nuclear simulator of soaking the map in lighter fluid, then igniting it?"

Surely, the strategic nuclear exchange option presented in "NATO" by Dunnigan wasn't it?

Yes and no IIRC. I think his explanation was that a tactical use of nukes would almost immediately escalate to a strategic exchange modeled by setting fire to the map. This was in response to questions from gamers as to why tac nukes were not included in the game.

Michael

[Wilhammer]

The Eden War Room is a separate structure - a 800 sqft Apt above a two car garage.

No cats live there - they live in our home.

Right now, the game of choice is Case Blue, the Enemy at the Gates scenario, covering Operation Uranus.

The OCS system is rather good - wish they had some of the titles still in print - all I have are CB, Baltic Gap and DAK.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/29285/case-blue

On another table is War Between the States - a Decsion Games remake of the SPI monster covering the ACW.

Favorite short plays abound - I really like CDGs - Card Driven Games - Wellington, Kutuzov, Wilderness War, Empire of the Sun, etc... and I like Operational Level Games in general, then strategic, and the occasional tactical.

We have 3 regular players, including me, and 3 other irregular players, and an extended group of 6 more in the area.

Almost every Saturday is a gaming today, and one night a week with my best friend.

John, we don't have DNO, but we do have its offspring - Fire in the East.

Many monster games exist in the EWR library - including the biggest of all - DG's War in the Pacific.

[Blackhorse]

I've just started to get into OCS, having recently purchased Tobruk, Burma (still available, btw), and Korea.

I think I need lessons though.

[Wilhammer]

I've just started to get into OCS, having recently purchased Tobruk, Burma (still available, btw), and Korea.

I think I need lessons though.

Korea is on my highly desired to get list.

[Pak_43]

"Yes and no IIRC. I think his explanation was that a tactical use of nukes would almost immediately escalate to a strategic exchange modeled by setting fire to the map. This was in response to questions from gamers as to why tac nukes were not included in the game."

I actually owned a copy of NATO and definitely remember the lighter fuel remark in the rules to simulate strategic nuclear weapons. NATO also definitely did have tac nukes modelled.

My copy of Palmers "The Best of Board Wargaming" also verifies it of the NATO game too. Of course it's possible Dunnigan used it in both sets of rules?