Casualties inside vehicles

[DaveDash]

This is semi related to this thread: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?p=1169238#post1169238

Are casualty rates from IEDs and RPGS over-modelled in game? In particular KIA?

Time and time again I read of numbers such as 0-4KIA (and not sure how many wounded) from IEDs in Afghanistan/Iraq, but rarely an ENTIRE squad is wiped out as KIA, quite often there are survivors able to continue the fight.

I can appreciate that most of the guys inside are going to be casualties, but the KIA ratio (at the end of the mission) is very high when you tend to lose guys in vehicles which makes me ASSUME they're mostly KIA.

Also, RPGs and such seem WAY too strong at causing casualties inside a vehicle (particulary KIA).

Overall, 21 of 350 Strykers have been destroyed since the 5th Brigade deployed in southern Afghanistan in July; more than two dozen Americans have been killed and nearly 70 wounded.

In CMSF you suffer MUCH higher attrition rates than that from IEDs, and the IEDS in Afghanistan have been described as very sophisticated and effective.

So whats the deal with casualties from IEDS? Are they automatic KIA? Is there a general ratio? Does things like buddy aid and the victor have any consideration to KIA WIA ratio?

Cheers

[cabal23]

We haven't even started discussing why it seems that the British use their vehicles to allow their troops to get air with zero ballistic protection. Driving a Jackal in this game is ridiculous. As they drive along they bleed Ii seen strykers full of troops get hit by an RPG and no one jumps out. Total loss. Would that really happen? I can see if someone fired an rpg into the back while the door was open, but from the side at 300 meters?

[John Kettler]

DaveDash,

I don't know if you understand what happens inside a buttoned AFV hit by an RPG and penetrated in the fighting compartment. I saw film of tests during my Hughes days because a subsidiary, the Santa Barbara Research Center, designed and developed the state of the art automatic Halon fire suppression system for both the Bradley and the Abrams. Absent such suppression, which can squash an RPG detonation in ~250 msec (magical, if you don't understand how it works), pressure and temperature go through the roof near instantly, and neither people nor equipment were designed for such loads, even without factoring in explosively displaced armor and the liner for the RPG projectile, which is hurled into the compartment as a very high velocity slug.

Here is a short vid to illustrate the basics. The slug is at the very bottom of that deep hole excavated by the explosion. An RPG-7 detonation makes this a nonevent by comparison.

Here's what a shaped charge does to a buttoned AFV which is combat loaded and not fitted with automatic fire suppression systems. Weapon is a Bill top kill ATGM. Begin to see why so many men die? The interior is turned into an instantaneous blast furnace and pressure cooker, in turn setting off the ammunition. Granted, this is a much more powerful warhead than an RPG-7 has, but the physics are the same, just not as extreme.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OTVqVzAvig

Here, a bit down the page, is a flash radiograph of a shaped charge which has pierced armor plate. You can clearly see the jet and the armor it has blasted out of the way. The radiograph doesn't show the blast, fire, smoke, toxins from items burning, etc.

http://whatsthecrack.net/Amazing-Slow-Motion-x-ray-gun-shots-pictures

Aftermath! VAB (French wheeled APC) hit by RPG. In color and a bit gory. Very informative text.

http://www.kepi.cncplusplus.com/Ivory_Coast/Ivory_Coast_RPG_hit.htm

Info on the VAB family, mit pics.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/vab/

Why spall liners are a must!

www.mater.upm.es/ISB2007/Proceedings/PDF/...2/Vol.II(53)TB40.pdf

Part of an official study, Emergency War Surgery, from a chapter on primary blast injury, which can kill without leaving a mark on the victim. Note: includes color autopsy pics of organs. Be sure to look at the list of crew protection tests which are mandated for U.S. AFVs. These will give you some idea of the environment created inside a penetrated AFV. See also the shocking discovery that ballistic vests worsen lung injuries from blast.

http://www.bordeninstitute.army.mil/published_volumes/conventional_warfare/ch06.pdf.

Be sure also to read the armored vehicle crewman portion of Chapter 1 here.

http://www.usaisr.amedd.army.mil/ewsh.html

Here's a great RPG-7 vid, in Russian, showing many aspects of the weapon, to include some of the nasty new rounds. Remember, when an RPG-7 hits, most of the explosive force winds up inside the target AFV.

Armed with the above, and possibly nauseous, you should now have a fair handle on why you lose so many men when an RPG-7 hits one of your AFVs.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Pandur]

well i dont find this to be a problem since the 1.20 patch. if i remember right it was 1.20 that largely reduced the effects of heat warheads. even if you hit a BMP wiht a RPG now most of the time you have 1 to 3 casualties...same goes for strykers.

when seeing this videos i even think this change in 1.20 is a little overdone...

[Thomm]

Aftermath! VAB (French wheeled APC) hit by RPG. In color and a bit gory. Very informative text.

http://www.kepi.cncplusplus.com/Ivory_Coast/Ivory_Coast_RPG_hit.htm

My impression, that you are in serious trouble when you are in the way of the shaped penetrator needle, is reinforced. BUT, if you are not, there appears to be much less threat to the health.

Disclaimer: Did not read the pdfs yet.

Best regards,

Thomm

[Pandur]

if one needs to see it, on sites like ogrish you can find pics of guys wich where directly in the way of the penetrator. if you dont dare to look at ogrish i tell you it looks like a big chunk of burned meat, although in human shape.

[c3k]

John,

In this video,

at the 3:48 mark is a few seconds showing a soldier firing an RPG-7. (I leave it to the RPG grogs to determine which mark of rocket is being fired.) The wind is slight, from right to left. The range seems pretty close. He missed.

So, ideal firing range conditions; slight crosswind; no incoming fire; no screaming, yelling, distractions, etc.; close target (less than 100 meters?); plenty of time; target not moving.

Possible spoilers would be the slight crosswind and let's grant that we have no idea what this guy's experiencle level is so we can call him a conscript on day 1 of basic training who just grabbed an RPG out of bin.

Regardless, it seems significant to me that the impact was both short and upwind. Short is due to aiming. Upwind is due to the slight wind (watch the smoke; 1 m/s? or less). That seems to be a very difficult weapon to aim accurately.

Thoughts?

Ken

[Clavicula_Nox]

That dude missed, and it was on tv? How embarrassing. To the gulag!

[c3k]

Yeah, and the chick piece of eye candy, er, I mean, the female reporter chosen for her journalistic credentials and speaking ability to be an on air personality, also missed.

Ken (who's only watched RPG launches and never actually participated)

[John Kettler]

Thomm,

Men are much less survivable when an explosion occurs inside their AFV, especially if buttoned, than they are were the same thing to happen outside said AFV. This is precisely why our armored troops in Vietnam, faced with VC mines and RPG-2s, opted to ride, calves dangling inside, on top of their now sandbag parapeted or ACAV configured M-113s, rather than in them. While VC bullets were a risk, the mine and RPG-2 threat could kill the M113 and everyone riding inside. The M113 drivers had to make do with sandbagging the floor plates, but couldn't ride outside. Open hatches acted to swiftly dissipate overpressure and reduce damage from "echoing" blast waves bouncing off the walls. Besides, doing so made emergency departure from the AFV much easier!

Here's what used to happen--M113 loses to B40. Note smashed in front plate, multiply pierced lower hull, wrecked suspension, upheaved roof hatch.

http://www.landscaper.net/images/B40APC.JPG

From here

http://www.landscaper.net/morepic.htm

This also used to be an M113

http://images4.fotki.com/v44/photos/1/133612/499312/M113cover-vi.jpg

M113 hit repeatedly and blown apart by internal explosion. Note ruptured roof welds, buckled roof, blown hatches, holes in side and shattered suspension.

http://media.photobucket.com/image/m113%20vs%20b40/dan_pub/M113ambulanceambushed8KIAgdud87YKW1.jpg

Wrecked M113 interior

http://centaurs.org/Historical%20Images/Walsh/Cu%20Chi/Destroyed%20M113%20-%201.JPG

Vietnam War M113 mine loss stats, taken from here. (Fair use)

http://home.comcast.net/~genericdad/m113gavin.html

"Between October 1968 and March 1969 alone 282 out of the 1,841 U.S. Army M113Тs in theater were destroyed by mines with 54 soldiers killed and 546 wounded. The Australian army from March 1968 to June 1969 lost 25 M113s to mines with 5 killed and 30 wounded. Troops got into the habit of riding on the roof of the M113 instead of inside the vehicle to reduce the chance of casualty from mines."

Had the above M113s been buttoned, rather than hatches open in the searing Vietnam heat and humidity, the personnel losses would've been far worse.

Regards,

John Kettler

[hcrof]

c3k - Its a 93mm warhead

The crosswind doesn't seem that slight as vegitation is being blown around and smoke disperses quickly. More importantly he seems to be firing from iron sights so any wind correction would be a guess at best. The optical sights help with firing in crosswinds even if they require more training to use.

[John Kettler]

c3k,

The RPG projectile is very sensitive to weathercocking, especially while in boost phase. This is a known issue, as shown in this TRADOC Bulletin. See Chapter 2 for an extensive discussion of this important issue.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/rpg-7.pdf.

There is now an American RPG-7. Apparently, some people feel we're seriously outgunned by our adversaries in MOUT battles.

http://www.defensereview.com/airtronic-usa-rpg-7-amerikansky-rocket-propelled-grenade-launcher/

Nice summary of the current state of the RPG-7.

http://www.defense-update.com/products/r/rpg.htm

Bottom line? Crosswind is a problem, especially for the poorly trained/untrained, but the weapon is formidable even in such hands. Defense Update says inexperienced operators can hit stationary targets at from 150-300 meters and goes on to say RPGs are responsible for over 50% of U.S. combat deaths in postwar Iraq.

http://www.defense-update.com/features/du-1-04/rpg-threat.htm

Regards,

John Kettler

[Thomm]

That "Gavin" webpage is hilarious!!

http://home.comcast.net/~genericdad/m113gavin.html

Best regards,

Thomm

[Pandur]

yea, absolutely! especially the fun/joke designs some guys came up with. the merka gavin

[DaveDash]

Right, the debate on RPG's is interesting, thanks for the info John. I don't have time to go through it right now (or dig up real life casualty reports to see if the tests match real life)...

So what about IEDs?

[John Kettler]

DaveDash,

You're welcome! Shall be most interested in your take after you've had a chance to get into the material I provided.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

The Airtronic Amerikansky RPG-7 is now in troop tests. Thought you'd like to see it. Wicked in black and note the sight! I tried loading the pic from Imgur via Insert other media, but all I got was ?

https://imgur.com/bs1FT3e

c3k,

I haven't been here on this thread for a frighteningly long time. Had no idea how long ago! I've now gone back and carefully watched that sequence five times of the soldier firing the RPG-7 and missing. He's missing primarily because he's swaying, nor does his stance, hence stability, seem all that great, either. Range is a bit short from what I can tell, but he swayed right and missed right as a result. Wind was going from soldier's left to right, I think. Distance to target appears to be pretty short, maybe 50 meters, if that. Firing while standing, especially if he's new at this, isn't a recipe for great shooting. 

Regards,

John Kettler

 

 

Edited January 10, 2016 by John Kettler