Dealing with ATGM's

[Atago]

Let's take the "pooh" scenario in the Marines campaign as an example...

You know there are enemy ATGM's somewhere. The only way to find them short of getting troops close is to have them fire. The only way to have them fire is to give them a target. If you miss one - and the target is one of your scarce tanks... you've traded badly for the chance to spot and kill the ATGM.

I've still not discovered the answer to this problem. For the Sagger's they often miss, giving away their position. For the newer ones, they very often hit and destroy what they hit. Once spotted of course, indirect fire works wonders. Until spotted...?

[Apocal]

In general terms, calling down artillery (preferably 155s because they carry the ammo for it), low intensity, high shell count mission across a relatively large suspect area works somewhat. The smoke (in case of "general") tends to blind ATGMs for a time. Without fire support or terrain favorable to dismounts getting ahead, I don't know how to really take them on.

[Cpl Steiner]

ATGMs are what really make modern warfare, well, modern. However, they are similar in many ways to WWII anti-tank guns - i.e. they are hard to spot until they fire and they are a cheap way of knocking out expensive armoured vehicles. As such, you can tackle them in a similar fashion to AT guns in CMx1.

1. Use scouts to try and identify them before they fire (difficult).

2. Ensure that the first unit they fire at is not your best, e.g. use low-value scout vehicles like Humvees or LAVs to identify them, rather than your best tanks.

3. Try using "Shoot and Scoot" style tactics to pop up on the crest of a hill, get the ATGMs to fire, and then reverse rapidly back to safety. The best way to do this is a fast order with a pause at the end followed by a reverse order.

4. As soon as you've identified them, hit them with indirect fire. On-map mortars (Brits), Javelin teams, artillery and aircraft are all very effective.

5. If all else fails, once identified, just make sure you keep out of their way!

[Atago]

So my tactic of wiggling my poor Hummer's arse out in the wind asking for the ATGM's to shoot it off isn't too screwy.

I think another issue may be that I play on rookie - and when an ATGM is spotted it doesn't remain as a "?" when it ducks (or the unit spotting it dies). I often can't get over to it and find an exact position before it vanishes.

My poor Hummers...

[Cuirassier]

The tactics are pretty much the same now as they were in WWII. Against a competent defender, you can't hope for them to unveil themselves because of your infantry or your light armor. They will wait, holding fire to hit your heavy afv's, which is their doctrinal role.

If you have enough arty, you can launch preplanned fires, hoping to knock out a couple that way, without spots. I have also found that airpower has a decent knack for finding and killing ATGM's on its own. However, this necessitates a rather high force to space, a plan driven attack and solid guesses on likely positions.

Another standard tactic is simply to trade through them. Like well commanded AT guns, when they unveil themselves, they will usually bag a tank. But then your mortar overwatch takes them out in turn. This is why attackers go in with odds. Fights often require the attacker and defender to exchange certain weapon systems evenly until one side runs out. The side that then runs out first then finds its force disarticulated in some sense and the fight snowballs from there.

The last method, which can be combined with the above two, is to attack with significant armor on a narrow enough front. Most importantly, you need to attack along the unexpected route, avoiding his killsacks. Recon can help in finding this route, but the best way to go about it is simply to guess correctly in the planning phase and execute it aggressively. The idea is to leave 1/3 to 1/2 of his ATGM's out of position by simply attacking where they aren't, and defeat the rest with the combination of planned arty and high local armor odds. The armor platoon is the minimum force needed for this attack, while a company is preferred.

So there are ways to minimize casualties on your side. And there ways to at least make the enemy bleed in return. What you can't expect though is to blow through his AT screen for no loss everytime. The armor war tends to be high variance, especially when you choose to ramp it up by shoving armor down a selected route. But really there is no easy way around it. You have to take your licks and make sure to give them too.

[DaveDash]

ATGMs, oh how I hate them. They are a tricky problem. I find it's very much a game of cat and mouse, with the cat switching sides quite often

This is not exactly scientific, but I find from the FRONT, an Abrams at least can survive enough hits from ATGM's in order to bring death upon them. Just make sure you don't advance your armour across lanes that expose their flanks.

Generally though, such in the case of Pooh, you have a lot of cover from buildings. I'd rather a bogged tank than a destroyed tank, so you can use cover to your advantage. Milk Run was a very ATGM friendly map, it's blatantly obvious that if you move your tanks down the obvious routes in those missions they're going to get slammed by ATGMs. I have them overwatching from covered/hull down positions.

On certain maps like Milk Run, my tanks are generally regulated to overwatch. So the very threat of ATGM's reduces their effectiveness. However even overwatching they can still be a devastating force multiplier, since they're not exactly range limited in CMSF AND you don't nessesarily NEED them to see what they're shooting at for them to be effective. E.G. That building up there that has a great field of view over your forces? Destroy it.

I get more worried about ATGM's vs an IFV/APC packed full of troops. I tend to trade a few empty IFV's for ATGMs in the games I play, as per Cuirassier's tactics, but I'd rather that than my tanks.

[Wengart]

I find dismounting infantry and having them clear the approaches works best. I usually set up a time table like system for the advance. for example, I'll give 1st platoon 15 minutes to make it from point A to B when time gets short I speed up the advance a little.

[MikeyD]

It also all depends on what type of ATGM you're talking about. Its often relatively easy to maneuver to inside an AT-3's minimum firing distance (400m?) then they're doomed. Also AT-3 is likely to miss first time and give its position away. Unfortunately, none of this applies to AT-4 and above.

Though people seem to be squeamish about it, there is the traditional "recon by fire", putting a couple rounds into the most likely ambush spot. Got a long treelined road to drive down with a sharp bend at the end? try putting a couple rounds into the patch of woods at the far end of the road 'just in case'.

[Atago]

The "pooh" mission still gives me fits. I'm obviously doing something wrong, but am really unsure what. I've played it many, many times now - and though I've figured out how to get by it - am still using it as my "test case" as it's the hardest campaign mission I've found in any of the 3.

The BMP-3's ATGM's and the infantry manned ones are quite capable of taking out the 4 tanks you get, and are pretty well supported, keeping recon forces from getting forward enough to find them (of course, now I know where they all are, but I pretend I don't).

The obvious route, and the one the briefing suggests is right up the road. I've been trying to see if I can actually do that without much success so far. Milk run is another one, though now that I've played it and know how to spot ATGM's locations via terrain differences, not as difficult. Main problem is new scenarios, where ATGMs could be anywhere.

One observation - it sure seems like ATGM's are easier for the AI to find and kill then it is for me. No idea why.

[DaveDash]

The "pooh" mission still gives me fits. I'm obviously doing something wrong, but am really unsure what. I've played it many, many times now - and though I've figured out how to get by it - am still using it as my "test case" as it's the hardest campaign mission I've found in any of the 3.

The BMP-3's ATGM's and the infantry manned ones are quite capable of taking out the 4 tanks you get, and are pretty well supported, keeping recon forces from getting forward enough to find them (of course, now I know where they all are, but I pretend I don't).

The obvious route, and the one the briefing suggests is right up the road. I've been trying to see if I can actually do that without much success so far. Milk run is another one, though now that I've played it and know how to spot ATGM's locations via terrain differences, not as difficult. Main problem is new scenarios, where ATGMs could be anywhere.

One observation - it sure seems like ATGM's are easier for the AI to find and kill then it is for me. No idea why.

When I did this mission, I sent the helo's in with large 400m kill zones so I think they cleared up a lot of BMP's and ATGM's for me. Arty might have done the rest. I never sent my tanks up the road, but rather zipped them around the right. One bogged but what are you gonna do?

[Atago]

I've tried clearing out ATGM areas with helo's but they don't seem too good at spotting them. BMP's however are certainly another story - they seem able to hunt them fairly well without any direct targetting from my boys.

[noxnoctum]

What would the US Marines do realistically in this situation?

I thought about using Humvees as bait, but it just feels gimmicky and I want to absolutely minimize casualties.

I'm on the pooh mission right now and I'm just using the Abrams to pound the **** out of confirmed enemy buildings from cover, and using my infantry to move forward.

[Ryujin]

Trying having your tank pop up for a second, maybe fire, and then reverse into cover. If done quickly you should be in cover before an ATGM can hit your tank and have some infantry near by observing for any launches. It's not ideal but probably the safest "bait method", especially at long range. Otherwise good recon and preemptive fire on likely spots is the best method.

Personally I like the tank method if recon doesn't work, it's my SOP for engaging with armor until I can confirm it's safe.

So a tank version of "I'm up, he sees me, I'm down".

[RadioactiveMan]

In regards to Operation Pooh...

Let your infantry do the legwork! You have alot of well-armed infantry for this mission, use them to your advantage. You also have a massive advantage early on before the sun comes up. Your infantry (and vehicles) can use their night vision to neutralize most Syrian units before they can return fire.

Even with a fairly cautious advance you should be able to get your recon elements into the main urban areas by the time the sun is up. Once the sun is up the more open "left" side of the map becomes a deathtrap... also, I don't think its too big a spoiler to mention that the left side seems to be where a lot of the Syrian artillery is aimed. The "right" side of the map should be your main axis of advance. Your IFVs can bring your infantry up to your forward recon positions... keep in mind that a route that was "safe" in the dark for the recon may not be safe in the daylight for your follow-up infantry!

Once your infantry is into the urban areas it becomes standard leapfrog suppression/assault tactics with IFVs in support as described in the "Assaulting Fierce and Agile" thread. Keep your javelin teams and tanks as far back as you can... use the tanks to pop out and pound buildings from extreme range. If the situation seems too risky for a tank use your Javelins. There are several fairly tall buildings near your side of the map that are great Javelin stations.

So, to summarize, the infantry comprise your main effort, using standard tactics for assaulting urban areas. You have a fair ammount of artillery and air support and a long time limit. If your infantry advance runs into a thorny problem have them sit tight and call in the big guns (artillery or tanks/javelins from maximum range). As was mentioned by another poster- the helicopters are great at spotting BMPs on their own. Give them large area fire targets and let them go to town. As for the ATGMs... hit all suspect buildings with tank rounds/grenades/machine guns. Hit them hard, and hit them frequently. Suppress known and potential ATGM positions before making a large move across open ground. There are a lot of places in this map where it simply too risky to move your armor up. Be patient, and let your infantry sort it out. The map comes apart like a puzzle. Each map area your infantry secure opens up access to new firing positions that can be used to support attacks on other map areas.

Thats my plan for Pooh, in a nutshell

[noxnoctum]

Yeah I just don't like watching an infantry squad get ripped to shreds by an MG that popped up out of nowhere because I don't want to risk driving my IFV right up to the building...

But hey, better a few more infantry casualties than the loss of an Abrams or IFV I guess.

You've got so much 5.56 ammo in the IFVs I guess I'll just pound into submission ALL the buildings as I advance.

[Chainsaw]

Once your infantry is into the urban areas it becomes standard leapfrog suppression/assault tactics with IFVs in support as described in the "Assaulting Fierce and Agile" thread. Keep your javelin teams and tanks as far back as you can... use the tanks to pop out and pound buildings from extreme range. If the situation seems too risky for a tank use your Javelins. There are several fairly tall buildings near your side of the map that are great Javelin stations.

Dont forget you got 2 SMAWs per Platoon and the AAV and trucks are full of reloads for them... use them.. I always save my Javelins for those irritating BMP-3 and later on to clean up the tanks in the built up areas.