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Centauro Expansion Pack


Broadsword
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Terrific news about the expansion pack soon to come.

Two questions:

1. Will any of the new maps/battles be El Guettar (March 1943) ? If so, I'll stop working on my custom map of that battle and just wait for the official version.

2. Will the expansion pack incorporate any new patches/improvements to the engine for the overall game? (Example: tweaks in small-arms accuracy at long range, etc.)

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If so, I'll stop working on my custom map of that battle and just wait for the official version.

Bad idea.

Better - continue work on maps and mission and wait for 1c release and add new italian tanks and other on your own mission.

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Yes, there s a mission in El Guettar area, but why stop your work?

Mathematical model of grouping of shots was adjusted, which resulted in somewhat lower accuracy at middle distances, but it's difficult to say would it be enough for you or not.

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I believe that the gripe peoples have with the infantry being "too accurate" comes mainly from the engagement distance. I don't think the infantry is too accurate, but they sure start firing at a very long range (usually from more than 600m. On my Holland map where the ground is very flat, the riflemen start shooting occasionaly at distances up to 900-1000m). They waste a lot of ammo, but always manage to shot some ennemies. Most of the casualties result from MG fire, though (not surprising), but the infantry firing with rifles usually waste several ammo clips before hitting anything at long range. I'm pretty sure that if the engagement ranges were reduced to 150-200m, nobody will complain about the uncanny accuracy of the AI.

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I suppose one could work around this small-arms range problem for now by setting all infantry to "ambush" at the start of the game. Then you could manually release units to fire when the enemy enters reasonable small-arms range. But that's a lot of micromanaging, and it won't stop the enemy from shooting at you at extreme range! I really hope the expansion will fix this -- it's really my only major gripe with TOW2 (well, other than the lack of small mortars) and it would make the expansion truly worth paying for.

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I seem to remember a while back Sneaksie mentioned something about a "Kursk" expansion that would feature on-map mortars. What is the status on this?

Also I thought there was another patch in the works... I assume the "grouping of shots" adjustment is part of that patch... correct?

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Yes, (and no offense to modern-day Italians, but) if we're going to have Italian troops and it's going to be a realistic game, they should be ready to surrender as soon as things start to go badly for them.

Well, lets try not to get this thread closed, ok?

If you were going to model a 1940-41 campaign you'd be right. However, why model a campaign against a weak and badly commanded army? Since a 1943 campaign is being modelled you are wrong. Italian troops, artillery and tank divisions performed quite well under german command. You should know that without italian support Rommel could have never done what he did.

Stop reading 1960 english history books and take some good recent books. And read them.

BTW, should we model hundred thousands english troops surrendering the way they did in South East Asia at the beginning of the war against Japan? Were they cowards? Probably not, they were simply surrendered, alone, with no supply, no good weapons and no good training .... ah, and what about Dunkirk? Another hundred thousands of cowards? C'mon ...

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Thank you for those insights, Centauro and Tartari, and I look forward to learning more about this fascinating aspect of World War II. I'm really eager to have the Italian forces in the game, because of their different mix of units/equipment, and because of the wider range of historic battles that become possible. Certainly we can now look forward to eventual mods or expansions simulating campaigns in Sicily and mainland Italy, too.

Also, I have never considered this issue of surrender to be about individual bravery or cowardice. I don't think the large numbers of Italians who surrendered were cowardly, any more than the British who surrendered at Dunkirk. It's just that sometimes the urge for self-preservation overcomes military discipline -- once soldiers realize they're on the losing side, or if they've been demoralized by poor leadership, or don't really know why they're fighting, then once they're cornered they're more likely to put their hands up than fight to the death. A lot of Italian soldiers probably had relatives in America, and they knew that Americans weren't the monsters that German propaganda made them out to be. I think they were tired of war and of Mussolini's posturing, and once they realized they would actually have better lives as POWs, they saw no reason to keep fighting for Hitler.

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... A lot of Italian soldiers probably had relatives in America, and they knew that Americans weren't the monsters that German propaganda made them out to be. I think they were tired of war and of Mussolini's posturing, and once they realized they would actually have better lives as POWs, they saw no reason to keep fighting for Hitler.

When I've been at Omaha Beach cemetery in Normandy I saw a lot of soldiers, fighter and bomber pilots graves with italian surnames. That was impressive indeed.

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I recommend a couple books on the Italians:

- Ian Walker's "Iron Hulls, Iron Hearts" cover the history of the Italian armored and motorized forces and is very good.

- Patty Griffiths "World War II Desert Tactics" (Osprey Elite Series) is also very good not only on the Italians but the British and German.

Griffiths says "What the stereotype (of the Italians) concealed was the renaissance in Italian military competence that followed almost immediately after Beda Fomm in Feb 41. "

He talks about organizational reforms and reinforcements in artillery, tanks motor transport and training. A major problem initially in Africa was the fact there was a huge infantry army supported by only 1 weak arm bde. Also there was a lack of company grade officers as well as NCO's.

Then followed the arrival of "Ariete" (armd), "Trento"(mech) and "Trieste"(mech) to Africa. All veteran units originally blooded in the Spanish Civil War. Later came "Littorio" armd div and "Folgore" parachute div. Finally "Centauro" armd div.

At Bir el Gubi (19 Nov 41) the Italians repulsed the 22nd Armd Bde and the Brits lost half their tanks. Then at the same place on Dec 4 the 'Giovani Fascisti' mech recon group beat off several attacks by 11th Indian Bde.

Griffiths further relates good Italian performances with Rommel at Gazala and Alamein.

The previous comment about Italian Gen Meese is correct says Griffith and he adds Meese had a good record on the Russian front.

My readings indicate the Italian artillery troops were very good although some of their equipment was WW1. In addition the armd, motorized and parachute units were quite good, again despite some seriously bad equipment issues.

This extended to the Italian Air Force and Navy. In particular the Navy excelled at special "small boat" units and frogmen the "MAS" guys.

\

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So, are the Italian tanks going to be so weak that the English will slaughter them? Also will units be able to surrender (no really, this would be awesome)?

How about some of those very late WW2 Italian AFV for a "what if" scenario or two:

- P26/40 100 built in 43 and 44. A 75/34 main gun and 26 tons, 60mm frt turret armor

- Semovente armed with the same 75/34 and another with the 105/25

- Semovente armed with a 75/46 Italian antiaircraft gun

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World war II desert tactics is a book I have been eyeing for a while now, but I have been collecting the campaign series from osprey so not really wanted to start another series, but the cover info was certainly interesting.

Italian forces on the east front is something that I find quite interesting, but sadly gaming never seems to acknowledge Italy's involvement beyond Africa or Sicily. I have read about italian gun crews fighting until the last man against Allied tank units, so they certainly don't deserve the stigma that is attacthed to to them, the same as the French army.

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  • 2 weeks later...

What the theme for another addon is good?

What is idea Romania+USSR vs Hungary+Germany in nothern Transilvania? We play for hungary against romanian occupation in many years conflict? What about this idea?

Or we free our historic lands in fightst against nazi and his minions in romanians fight group Michay? free our historic land? (Dracula live here) :)

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What the theme for another addon is good?

What is idea Romania+USSR vs Hungary+Germany in nothern Transilvania? We play for hungary against romanian occupation in many years conflict? What about this idea?

Or we free our historic lands in fightst against nazi and his minions in romanians fight group Michay? free our historic land? (Dracula live here) :)

I wanna talk about hungary vs romanian fight - is the greatest conflict and for our day - nothern transilvania, captured by romanians where live hungary people (now this place where hunns live more than romanians, but this place is romanian now). If you has another idea - please talk. Where romanian is hard fighters (Romania has more losses in fight for notern transilvania, then all eastern front. Russian and romanian (like Roman) was very hardly fight vs Hungary fascist)

Yess, i speak orrkishh.... defenitly....

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@Tche

I agree that seeing some of the battles on the east front featuring Romanian and Hungarian forces would be really cool. The contributions good or bad by those nations is largely ignored in WW2 computer games, and I guess we can only hope that either someone makes a really good mod or 1C decide to make a few new campaigns featuring other nations.

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