Today's grammar howler

[gautrek]

Seems the Normans are to blame.

No mate the Brits are to blame as we bastardised the words.

[Stalins Organ]

Misunderstandings are part oflife - they occur with perfect spelling and bad spelling, and with no spelling at all (spoken). They are a function of humanity, not of spelling.

If you were told Alice threw the looking glass how would you know if it was destruction of property or literary masterpiece?

again - context - simply writing the sentence provides none, and it is only becuse there is no context that there is potential for ambiguity.

[JonS]

Misunderstandings are part oflife - they occur with perfect spelling and bad spelling' date=' and with no spelling at all (spoken). They are a function of humanity, not of spelling.[/quote']

That's a cop out. The way to resolve ambiguity isn't by adding more ambiguity.

Sure. Contrived examples are ... contrived. That still doesn't get you by Emrys' point about diverting attention from the meaning onto the words and trying to decypher the meaning. Also, real examples happen all the time and, again, the way to resolve ambiguity isn't by adding more ambiguity - it's by mocking the lackwits who think that is the solution.

[Affentitten]

And my example was something that I put all of 10 seconds thought into. But it shows that radically different interpretations can occur.

Here's a couple more old faves from when I was teaching English:

The secretary said the boss is wrong.

"The secretary," said the boss, "Is wrong."

[JonS]

I did not steal the wallet

What does that mean?

I did not steal the wallet

Ok, I stole something, but it wasn't the wallet. Or ...

I did not steal the wallet.

... I don't know what happened to it. Or ...

I did not steal the wallet

... ok, I know what happened to it, but it hasn't been stolen (maybe I hid it behind the sofa?). Or ...

I did not steal the wallet

... Yes, the wallet was stolen, but it wasnt me that took it.

What's it going to be? Where's the wallet?

[JonS]

1)The girl at the docks said "I like British seamen."

2) Punctuate this:

woman without her man is nothing

Do we both get the same meaning? Are you sure?

3) A sales brochure breathlessly claims that the product will give me "piece of mind" ... maybe it will, but I certainly won't be buying it.

Examples shamelessly stolen from here

[Apocal]

Dew knot trussed yore spell chequer too fined awl yore myst aches.

[Stalins Organ]

Also, real examples happen all the time and, again, the way to resolve ambiguity isn't by adding more ambiguity - it's by mocking the lackwits who think that is the solution.

I'm glad we obviously agree that the way to solve ambiguity isn't arbitrary spelling restrictions.

[Dietrich]

If you were told Alice threw the looking glass how would you know if it was destruction of property or literary masterpiece?

That would depend to a great extent upon how the person saying "Alice threw the looking glass" uttered that sentence.

If they simply said "Alice threw the looking glass" (i.e., with the sort of straightforward cadence and emphasis implied by the lack of distinguishing punctuation) I would think, "Why did she do that?"

If they said what sounded like "Alice, threw the looking glass" (in this rendition the comma indicates a momentary pause, which would imply a separation between the subject, Alice, and that which phonetically could be a verb or a preposition), I would think they were speaking of the character Alice and the literary work said character was featured in.

The secretary said the boss is wrong.

"The secretary," said the boss, "Is wrong."

Here again, punctuation underscores the difference which cadence and emphasis/enunciation make in clarifying meaning.

"The secretary said the boss is wrong." This would have fairly steady cadence and only minor pitch variation.

"'The secretary,' said the boss, 'is wrong.'" Likely emphasis would be placed on "secretary", whereas "said the boss" would be spoken in a semi-undertone, distinguishing it from the parts of the sentence before and after it, making clear that it's a split quotation.

1)The girl at the docks said "I like British seamen."

I'm reminded of Eddie Izzard, in a gig in San Francisco, telling the audience:

[dieseltaylor]

Cherchez la femme

Meaning

The translation from the French is "look for/seek the woman". It is used when a man behaves unusually or gets into a quarrel or other difficulty and the reason for it is sought.

Origin

'Cherchez la femme' is sometimes mistakenly thought to refer to men's attempts to pursue romantic liaisons with women. In fact, the phrase, which is occasionally used in its loose English translation 'look for the woman', expresses the idea that the source of any given problem involving a man is liable to be a woman. That isn't to say that the woman herself was necessarily the direct cause of the problem, as in Shakespeare's Macbeth for instance, but that a man has behaved stupidly or out of character in order to impress a woman or gain her favour.

The expression was coined by Alexandre Dumas (père) in the novel The Mohicans of Paris, 1864, in the form of 'cherchons la femme'. In John Latey's 1878 English translation, Dumas' detective, Monsieur Jackal, concludes that a woman must have been involved in the crime being investigated:

"Where's the woman? Seek her."

His opinion was later confirmed by a colleague:

"Ah! Monsieur Jackal, you were right when you said, 'Seek the woman.'"

The phrase was adopted into everyday English use and crossed the Atlantic by 1909. It was well enough known there by that date for O. Henry (William Sydney Porter) to use it as the title of a story - Cherchez La Femme, which includes this line:

"Ah! yes, I know most time when those men lose money you say 'Cherchez la femme' - there is somewhere the woman."

Dumas was, of course, the author of many popular novels, including The Count of Monte-Cristo, 1844, from which he earned a sizeable fortune. He had a bash at following in the footsteps of his eponymous hero when he had the lavish Château de Monte-Cristo built in 1846. Life copied art also in his ruinous attempts to attract women to the high life at the chateau. When biographers looked to see where all his money went, the only explanation needed was 'cherchez les femmes'.

See also - other French phrases in English.

[dieseltaylor]

I thought I would throw that in as it is interesting.

English is a wonderful creative language and when you consider the French have a paltry 100000 to play with, and the Germans just stick words together to make them longer .... it is fun we can pun, rhyme all the thyme, and adopt fun words from everywhere.

[gautrek]

There is a village near me that is called Breedon on the Hill.

The only problem is

The name derives from the Celtic word "bre" for hill and the Anglo Saxon word "dun" for hill.

So it actually means Hill Hill on the Hill:)

[dieseltaylor]

So not Bredon Hill in Somerset then!

[Stalins Organ]

If they simply said "Alice threw the looking glass" (i.e., with the sort of straightforward cadence and emphasis implied by the lack of distinguishing punctuation) I would think, "Why did she do that?"

If they said what sounded like "Alice, threw the looking glass" (in this rendition the comma indicates a momentary pause, which would imply a separation between the subject, Alice, and that which phonetically could be a verb or a preposition), I would think they were speaking of the character Alice and the literary work said character was featured in.

Quite.

context is everything. Punctuation is very useful for context and in the written word is seks to convey those cadences and emphasis (emphases??) that the spoken word conveys - I have no problem with punctuation.

It's only the idea that "correct" spelling is untouchable/set in stone/important that I take issue with - English is about the only modern language where spelling is actually a problem.

Ghoti & chips anyone?

[JonS]

It's only the idea that "correct" spelling is untouchable/set in stone/important that I take issue with

Sure. Argue with a strawman. Go knock yourself out.

[dieseltaylor]

English is about the only modern language where spelling is actually a problem.

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Source?

As far as I know the French take great efforts to avoid writing letters as French is particularly difficult with its endings. Not a problem when speaking but a nightmare when written.

[costard]

How about (modern) pictographic languages? I'm guessing a misplaced penstroke lends an entirely different meaning to a word.

French is a great language and the endings aren't too hard to deal with; you just have to make sure your verbs agree with your nouns and your tenses are consistent. Here's a tip: study Latin.

[Dietrich]

it actually means Hill Hill on the Hill:)

"The School of Redundancy School"

It's only the idea that "correct" spelling is untouchable/set in stone/important that I take issue with

Before the establishment of printing, spelling was even more variable than it can seem currently. Back then, when Modern English was in its early years, everything written was indeed still written, and spelling was more a matter of individual discernment than of textbook correctness. When printing got established, spelling became gradually more standardized.

So in a way, the apparent tendency of most people to misspell is as much relative to how the standardization of spelling flies in the face of how people interpret language (even their native tongue) individually.

English is about the only modern language where spelling is actually a problem.

Depends on what you mean by "problem", and depends on the native language of the person who thinks English spelling is problematic.

The divergence between French spelling and pronunciation has already been mentioned. To my eye, there is an even greater divergence between spelling and pronunciation in Welsh and languages kin to it. I reckon, though, that that is at least partially because I have not studied Welsh to any extent and thus have had no change to discern what patterns do exist in Welsh orthography as it corresponds to pronunciation.

Tower Orthography is an example of a way to interpret actual English pronunciation through spelling (orthography) rather than the other way around.

[Michael Emrys]

To my eye, there is an even greater divergence between spelling and pronunciation in Welsh...

Oh dear god. I was hoping no one would bring that up. I'm not entirely convinced yet that Welsh is actually a language. It could just be a cruel joke cooked up by those hillbilly Celts as defiant revenge against their Anglo-Saxon (actually more Norman) conquerors. If so, it is fiendishly effective.

Michael

[Stalins Organ]

"The School of Redundancy School"

Depends on what you mean by "problem",

That many people have trouble with their native English spelling all their lives, whereas, say, Spanish & Italian have no trouble with spelling their native language.

[Affentitten]

Oh dear god. I was hoping no one would bring that up. I'm not entirely convinced yet that Welsh is actually a language. It could just be a cruel joke cooked up by those hillbilly Celts as defiant revenge against their Anglo-Saxon (actually more Norman) conquerors. If so, it is fiendishly effective.

Michael

What I find interesting about Welsh, Gaelic etc. is that they have adopted the Latin characters, but with radically different phonics from what those characters represent in most of the other languages that use them.

[dieseltaylor]

Spelling in France:

baisse-toi --- Duck your head down

Baise-toi ---- Screw yourself

J'ai eu un malaise ----- I felt ill

J'ai eu une Malaise ---- I shagged a malaysian women

Je vais faire un tour --- I am going for a walk

Je vais faire une tour ----- I am going to build a tower

[Michael Emrys]

What I find interesting about Welsh, Gaelic etc. is that they have adopted the Latin characters, but with radically different phonics from what those characters represent in most of the other languages that use them.

Good point. I was thinking the same thing the other day. That's one of the main things that makes it so difficult for a non-native. You think you should know what it sounds like, but you don't. You're not even close.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Spelling in France:

baisse-toi --- Duck your head down

Baise-toi ---- Screw yourself

J'ai eu un malaise ----- I felt ill

J'ai eu une Malaise ---- I shagged a malaysian women

Je vais faire un tour --- I am going for a walk

Je vais faire une tour ----- I am going to build a tower

German also has a trick or two for the unwary. "Ich bin ein Berliner."="I am a jelly doughnut." Eh? Do tell?

Michael

[dieseltaylor]

Did Kennedy really call himself a doughnut?

Stirring stuff, no doubt, but Kennedy's actual German has been a source of controversy ever since 1961. For as we have learned, to say that you come from a certain place necessitates the construction: "Ich bin Engländer", "Ich bin Österreicherin" etc. - i.e. a construction without the indefinite article.

So by saying "Ich bin ein Berliner" instead of "Ich bin Berliner", some people have concluded that Kennedy had made an embarrassing mistake. For the word, "der Berliner" has two meanings, not only "a citizen of Berlin" but also "a jelly doughnut", and by using the indefinite article in his speech Kennedy has been interpreted as outing himself as a tasty culinary delicacy! Similarly, if you said "Ich bin ein Hamburger" instead of "Ich bin Hamburger", you might be seen to be implying not that you came from Hamburg but that you are a quarterpounder with cheese...!

In fact, Kennedy inadvertently outing himself a jelly donut is an urban myth. For one thing, he was told to say this sentence by his translator - who was a German. For another, the crowd patently understood what Kennedy was saying, and cheered him instead of laughing. Whilst not worrying too much about the distinction for the time being, there are many regions of Germany where the indefinite article can be used to describe your profession and where you live. This is particularly the case in Bavaria - and in the north-east of Germany where Berlin is located. Furthermore, if you claim that a "Berliner" can be a type of character as well as a place of birth, then the grammatical rule as to whether you use the indefinite article or not in this context becomes very blurred.

So what lessons should we learn as students of German? We would still recommend omitting the indefinite article when describing your profession and where you live. You should nevertheless be aware that native Germans who include the article are not trying to indicate that they are nutty as a fruitcake. Or a jelly donut. Or a hamburger for that matter.

http://userweb.port.ac.uk/~joyce1/abinitio/chap5-10.html