German Resource's.

[sonar]

Hi, is there an equivalant to "Glantz", looking from the German perspective of East front operations ?

[KG_Jag]

Paul Carell is such a person. Undoubtedly you'll hear much from others about his Nazi history.

[Der Alte Fritz]

Sorry there is no way that Paul Carell can be compared to Glantz. Paul is a journalist and his work is primarily a collection of reminissences from German soldiers. It is good stuff but cannot be relied on for accuracy. Glantz is a professional historian and researcher.

A better candidate would be Earl Ziemke or for the Panzer troops Jentz.

[Tero]

By Der Alte Fritz

Glantz is a professional historian and researcher.

Somehow relying on Soviet historians instead of actual archival sources does not enpower him to command the high ground on historical accuracy over Carell. And IIRC Carell's work has some Soviet memoires in it to give a resemblance of a bigger picture.

A better candidate would be Earl Ziemke

A good choice but just like Glantz the historical accuracy of his work is relying on biased sources.

[Stalins Organ]

I was under the impression that a lot of Glantz's reputaion comes from being one of the first historians to get into the Soviet archives after the dissolution of the USSR.

[JasonC]

Tero is just, in technical terms, being a horse's posterior. He means anyone who cites another historian is not (sniff) a *real* historian, only those who cite sales receipts and accounting stubs and pottery shards and other trash. Needless to say, this is bumcomb.

[Der Alte Fritz]

Having actually worked with David Glantz, I can tell you that he has actually had some of the best access to Soviet archives of any westerner, he has an huge amount of documentation in his possession and he has a wide range of contacts with both German and Russian historians.

One of his main aims has always been to bring Soviet documentation into sight in the West, so that a balanced view can be taken, not necessarily saying that these documents are fair or give a true picture, just that they should be examined.

And he has spent a fair amount of time rubbishing the madder sort of Russian post-Stalinist historians.

[Tero]

By JasonC

Tero is just, in technical terms, being a horse's posterior. He means anyone who cites another historian is not (sniff) a *real* historian, only those who cite sales receipts and accounting stubs and pottery shards and other trash. Needless to say, this is bumcomb.

Glantz is a real historian, no contest. I just guestion the superiority of the historical accuracy of his work as opposed to historical accuracy of Carells work.

Glanz's work is a compillation, an anthology if you will, heavily based on pre-processed "facts" made by purpose driven Soviet historians. Carells work is based on archival sources and is spiced up by personal memoires of actual combatants.

In fact Carells work is much like the work by Ambrose. The only difference is Carells work is much more general in nature and with wider perspective.

EDIT: Just checked the bibliography in The Siege of Leningrad and it lists Carell's books among the sources side by side with a host of Soviet histories from the '40's to the late 80's.

[Zarquon]

As for Carell's credibility, you might consider that between '40 and '45, Paul Karl Schmidt (aka Carell) was one of the most high-level Nazi propagandists in the party machine. Of course that didn't prevent his post-war books from becoming bestsellers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Carell

[JasonC]

Carell is a buffoon and a liar to the bottom of his boots, I can't look at anything he wrote without laughing out loud. Glantz is one of the best historians writing. If Tero can't see the difference it is Tero being a horse's posterior and not anything wrong with Glantz.

[Tero]

By JasonC

Carell is a buffoon and a liar to the bottom of his boots, I can't look at anything he wrote without laughing out loud.

Well, his work is credible enough to wind up among the sources Glantz has used.

Glantz is one of the best historians writing.

That is a matter of opinion. The subject matter is interesting but so far his work has not been much more than compillation and translation of Soviet second and third hand sources.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

a Finn reading Glantz is easily disillusioned about the level of accuracy.

when he writes about Finno-Soviet stuff he at places clearly just parrots Stalinist wartime propaganda (which was debunked by Soviet historians already during Soviet era). and then there are some absurd mistakes (e.g. mixing Winter War & Continuation War numbers).

Finno-Soviet stuff isn't of course his main focus, and the whole thing was a marginal side show, but it's a bit disappointing to read stuff that is little more than garbage in his books, even if the whole point is to just translate Soviet sources.

Glantz is as good as it gets in general, though.

[Dietrich]

Note to self:

1. Read book(s) by Glantz. (I found this article by Glantz quite instructive.)

2. Ask JasonC about who I should read for detailed small-unit German infantry combat accounts other than Carell.

[JasonC]

D - how about "Death of the leaping horseman", unit history of 24th Panzer in Stalingrad by Jason D. Mark? It sets a standard. Anything by Zetterling, for rigorous analysis that debunks romantic myths from all parties. Also look for the (brief, post-war interview)memoir by General of artillery Roman on the defensive fighting following Kursk - it is candid where everything else is sensationalist or axe-grinding by comparison, though much higher level than you are asking about.

[Heinrich505]

I absolutely concur about Jason Mark. "An Infantryman in Stalingrad: From 24 September 1942 to 2 February 1943" is a truly amazing book, researched to an incredible degree. I recently purchased "Island of Fire: The Battle for the Barrikady Gun Factory in Stalingrad," and his level of in-depth research and writing is even better. His books are rather expensive, but you are getting a superior product, from all angles of research, background on the photographs, even to the paper used, the proofreading, and the binding of the book. He has really set the standard pretty high.

"Death of The Leaping Horseman" is pretty hard to find now at an affordable price. Amazon has copies for almost $300.00.

Heinrich505

[Tero]

By Dietrich

this article by Glantz quite instructive.

The conclusions are interesting. Especially given the fact that by 1986 most of the Western historical community was aware the Kursk defences were influenced (to say the least) by highly accurate intel data on the preprations and plans of the upcoming operation received from Werther.

[Tero]

In Deadly Combat by Bidermann is worth a look.

[Tero]

Where's the frigging edit button ?!?

Anyhow: with regards to the Glantz on-line piece and the conlusions therein which totally bypass the intel which influenced heavily the Red Army depolyment I should have mentioned at least Carell would have us believe the 3rd battle of Harkov was such a debacle for the Red Army because the front line commanders disobeyed orders from GHQ and Stalin was being fed with intel data from there which ran contrary to what was actually happening at the front.

EDIT: OK, the edit feature in the post I was to edit went sour.

[Redwolf]

This one is really good. It doesn't evaluate all aspects but it has a very close look at some aspects:

Normandy 1944: German Military Organization, Combat Power and Organizational Effectiveness by Niklas Zetterling

[Dietrich]

JasonC,

Thank you for the recommendations. I had not heard before about Jason Mark, nor Zetterling or Roman.

Heinrich 505,

Do An Infantryman in Stalingrad or Island of Fire have anything to do with Joachim Stemper (Stempel?), who I believe was a company commander in a certain Panzergrenadier regiment there?

Tero,

I have In Deadly Combat and found it quite interesting, especially since it's from the perspective of a man who was both a Pak gunner and later a rifle company commander.

On a side note, has anyone ever browsed the customer reviews of German soldier memoir books on Amazon? Most of the reviews provide rather amusing reading.

[Der Alte Fritz]

Rolf Hinze is quite good if a bit high level for your needs. He served with 19th Panzer Division.

Zetterlings Kursk 1943 is a good book.

III Pz Korps at Kursk has a lot of ground level info but is an English translation of a German translation written in French. Needless to say the English is awful.

Panzers on the Eastern Front is quite good for local colour as is Losa and Tank Rider by Bessenov.

[Heinrich505]

Dietrich,

I couldn't find any Stemper or Stempel mentioned in either.

However, in "An Infantryman in Stalingrad," author Adelbert Holl states that a Oberst i.G. Johannes Konrad Steffler took command of his unit on 9 December, 1942. A footnote from co-author Mark shows that Oberst i.G. Steffler was chief-of-staff of IV Armeekorps from 20 June 1942 until 5 December, when he took command of Infanterie-Regiment 276. He was with them for about 5 days, and then was transferred on 14 December to 389 Infanterie-Division to take command of Infanterie-Regiment 545. The notes also say he was born in Glanz and died in captivity less than a month after the surrender of the pocket.

Could this be the officer you were referring to?

Heinrich505

[Dietrich]

Heinrich505,

Thank you for taking the time to look this up and write out such a detailed reply. (I take it "An Infantryman in Stalingrad" has an index?) I asked about Stemper because the book's title reminded me of a curious audio recording I found at germanwarmachine.com, the journal-style account of a certain Joachim Stemper, read by a British fellow and underscored by suitable sound effects and occasionally bits of subtle music. Stemper (his rank is never mentioned, as I recall) was assigned as a company commander to Panzergrenadierregiment 103 in the battalion commanded by a certain Erich Domaschk. The only other mention of Stemper (or Domaschk) which I have personally come across is in Carell's "Hitler Moves East" (the English translation of "Unternehmen Barbarossa"), in which Carell states that the company commanded by Stemper was put into the battle line as reinforcements for Domaschk's battalion.

------------------------------------------------

Having done what I believe to be sufficient research into German doctrine (both strategic and tactical) and actual practice from corps all the way down to company level, I'm now searching for works which provide a deeper and more detailed insight into what combat (especially on the Eastern Front) was like for a typical German infantry platoon, squad, and even individual Schütze/Grenadier. I've read several memoir-type books -- including Knappe's "Soldat", Bidermann's "In Deadly Combat", Grossjohann's "Five Years, Four Fronts", and "Blood Red Snow" (I forget the author's name) -- but these books tend to generalize about combat and the actions therein. I now realize that what I need to add that last measure of depth to my understanding is a work (assuming that such exists) that blends the historian's knowledge of fact with the novelist's sense of action; in short, a work that offers detailed description of small-unit German infantry combat, a work by someone who could not be called "a buffoon and a liar". This is important to me because I'm in the pre-writing phase of a novel about a German infantryman in a fairly typical rifle company and his experiences from late August to mid December 1941, and I want to give it as much verisimilitude as possible, so that the reader has a clear sense of what it was like to live, fight, strive to survive, and die in those conditions.

[Heinrich505]

Dietrich,

I have the books you mention. Günter K. Koschorrek wrote "Blood Red Snow," by the way. I have quite a few others, but they vary from generalizations to outright diatribes that wouldn't be much use to your task. I've searched high and low for just the kind of memoir you seek, but they all seem to fall a little short. Some are very good, but often they do way too much soul searching, or trying to explain/justify things. I would guess there are many such partial manuscripts that were never translated, and of course I kick myself for not having pushed my fluency in the language far beyond its present level.

One author not mentioned so far is Russ Schneider. His book "Siege A Novel of the Eastern Front 1942" has been very well received as one that describes the horrors of infantry combat on the eastern front. While I have not read it yet - saving it for now, due to a huge reading list - I am looking forward to it. I have read another of his books, "Gotterdammerung 1945 Germany's Last Stand in the East," and it is excellent. Several of his books are extremely hard to find. I've been looking for "Madness Without End Tales of Horror from the Russian Wilderness" for quite some time, with no success. "Demyansk More Tales of Horror from the Russian Wilderness" seems equally hard to find, with paperback versions going for several hundred dollars. You might consider "Siege." It may fit the type of individual action that you seek.

I find your novel idea quite intriguing. I have always wanted to do just that, but cannot find the time to do so, due to work, family, etc. Maybe when I retire....or when the economy gets much better, ha hah. I wish you luck on your venture. It sounds like a lot of work but could be quite rewarding. I'd love to read it, so please keep me posted. PM me if you like.

Heinrich505

[sonar]

Lots of arguments in this post, though very little information.Zetterling has only two books that focus on east front. Is that it for well researched work on east front operations from the german perspective?