Hawaii's Garrison

[scottsmm]

Not only does it sound more sinister which I think every chance you get to make the Axis sound sinister you should take, but it's also 100% true. Hitler created wars with countries which Germany couldn't have hoped to have won, and thus when the inevitable happened he killed himself. This is just one example there are many more.

[SeaMonkey]

Arado, i think the Americans were incensed with retribution after the deceitful way it was prosecuted. Remember the USA was a child(ideology of fairness) in contrast to other nations as far as the global scene, wasn't PH seen as justification for a couple of Atom Bombs?

Revenge and Karma aren't always equitable.

There are plenty of ways for the Axis to have a chance for a limited victory after 1941. Say a delayed attack on USSR and more provisions for North Africa with Rommel continuing on into the Mideast. More pressure on Franco, a threatened invasion and Gibraltar succumbs which effectively closes the Med. to the Allies.

How about no DoW on USA after PH by Germany? Now perhaps Japan doesn't do PH and moves more forcibly into the Indian Ocean threatening India, Burma.

Imagine, by 43, Rommel in Iran/Iraq on USSR southern border, Japanese in India back dooring China, Fins in the north pressure Leningrad and Uncle Joe about to feel the full wrath of the Wehrmacht. USA still pursuing isolationism.

Is it such an outlandish turn of events?

[Colin I]

I agree with SeaMonkey - Germany was unlikely to win or get a limited victory but do not think our view of history is so clear that some settlement is impossible.

Diplomacy is critically important in alternative outcomes and you can imagine areas that could make a big difference (Spain, Ukraine or other USSR components that hated Stalin) plus a different bargaining position if Middle East fell etc. more than the warfare as creating other futures.

Agreed it was unlikely but do not how we can say it was impossible - we really forget how bleak things looked in the first part of the war for the Allies.

[cubby]

Arado, i think the Americans were incensed with retribution after the deceitful way it was prosecuted. Remember the USA was a child(ideology of fairness) in contrast to other nations as far as the global scene, wasn't PH seen as justification for a couple of Atom Bombs?

Revenge and Karma aren't always equitable.

There are plenty of ways for the Axis to have a chance for a limited victory after 1941. Say a delayed attack on USSR and more provisions for North Africa with Rommel continuing on into the Mideast. More pressure on Franco, a threatened invasion and Gibraltar succumbs which effectively closes the Med. to the Allies.

How about no DoW on USA after PH by Germany? Now perhaps Japan doesn't do PH and moves more forcibly into the Indian Ocean threatening India, Burma.

Imagine, by 43, Rommel in Iran/Iraq on USSR southern border, Japanese in India back dooring China, Fins in the north pressure Leningrad and Uncle Joe about to feel the full wrath of the Wehrmacht. USA still pursuing isolationism.

Is it such an outlandish turn of events?

It sounds like a Harry Turtledove book!!!!

[arado234]

I know the Axis had some opportunities presented to them that they major screwed up but for the most part(as far as Germany goes)it was the fault of Hitler.The one imho real opportunity he messed up big time was the very possibility of getting all of Western Russia to join him in the great crusade against Stalin or at minimum get another revolt started and install a pro-Nazi govt.With Japan the very idea of attacking America shows how crazy they were.They never should have attacked America and should have done their utmost to keep America happy.

The Axis also never worked together as a team.They just shared a common enemy.No joint overall plan like we had.

The ideas you guys bring up about a possible Axis negotiated settlement I cant see ever happening beacuse everyone knew you couldnt trust Hitler.So how could you negotiate with him?

[scottsmm]

What if the July 20th assassination attempt was a success Arado? Or any other serious attempt on his life (there were about 40 I believe). If there was no Hitler do you think some sort of a peace deal would have been possible? The people that would be offering the deal would be the ones who killed Hitler to achieve it so chances are there not going to backstab the Allies, as if they wanted to do that they would have never attempted to kill Hitler, and put their own lives on the line. Either way though what does this have to do with Hawaii?

[arado234]

You have to think that if one of many attemps on Hitlers life had been a success then I guess it would then depend on how the war was progressing and what both sides wanted.You have to think that if Hitler was killed it would prove to the Allies that Germany was atleast somewhat open to a realistic peace agreement.

This has nothing to do with Hawaii but then neither do alot of these last posts.The subject somehow got onto Germany.

[scottsmm]

True. I personally wonder if there is a god out there sometimes, because if he was a kind god he would have let the assassins put the second explosive in that briefcase, or had it so the meeting wasn't in the Wolf's Lair. There were a lot of things that botched that attempt, and it makes you wonder if you could pin the blame on just luck. The assassins only would have needed a split second to have added the second bomb in the suitcase (would have killed Hitler), the Wolf's Lair had open windows if they were closed the blast would have killed Hitler, If the suitcase wasn't moved at the last second, well I think you get the point. I've done a lot of work on Hitler and assignation attempts on his life, and to be honest with you I'm 120% amazed at the fact he survived to take his own life. I mean in one occasion, Hitler avoided death by 12 minutes, in another occasion the SAS decided not to shot him, because Winston Churchill decided at the last second that Hitler's blunders were more beneficial to the Allies. The last one I mentioned of course wasn’t luck, but instead a strategic decision made by Winston Churchill. Hitler himself said "he owed his life to luck, and not the Sugar Sugar divisions (German codename for SS), the Gestapo", or any other service meant to protect him.

It seems to me that whenever you talk about WWII, it always no matter what the topic is gets to Germany, and often ends with some sort of discussion of Germany.

[Nupremal]

To the guy who hates the small Hawaii garrison - open the editor - change it, save the campaign with a slightly different name - play. It would take 5 minutes to change.

[Gorgin]

Nupremal -- What's all this about the Hawaii garrison ? This thread is about assassinating Hitler

[Baron]

To the guy who hates the small Hawaii garrison - open the editor - change it, save the campaign with a slightly different name - play. It would take 5 minutes to change.h

This may come as a huge shock but not all people like to open the editor and change things. It is a jaded and oversuggested "miracle solution"

Ludi simply pointed out some issues with the game - alot of these issues have been around since SC2. I think the land portion of this game is extremly well done but the naval aspects are still lacking. The fact that you can move air units across the globe with no real way of getting them there is also absurd. This is a "beer and pretzels" game but that doesn't mean it can't be improved upon without ruining it.

How about making the Pacific Islands apart of the victory conditions?

Why not add "convoy lanes" for opportunity movement of aircraft?

Why not fix it so that you have a supply unit (think fleet train) that loses a point of supply for every unit it is adjacent too that takes reinforcements? This unit could be built and moved anywhere a ship could go - it could reinforce air & naval units. It could also be attacked and give the Japs or Allies something else to attack. This would mean protecting them would be important and would make a long distance invasion feasable and more "realistic".

For those that like the game as is fine but others would like to see it improved upon. I would also suggest reading some books on the War in the Pacific it would really enlighten some of the posters here as to the real world difficulties that both sides faced and what they could possibly have done.

[scottsmm]

To be honest guys, I really don't even think it would even take 5 minutes to do, probably closer to a minute or two. All you would have to do Ludi, is just add a few units and a fortress or two depending on what YOU see fit.

[Nupremal]

I never said the other areas were not something that can be addresses - but also many people do not realize how difficult it is to make changes in programs. There are always unintended consequences that pop up, making any changes something that must be carefully considered and tested.

Personally I have addressed a lot of things when I mod, and use the existing way the game works to tweak things in the directions I think they should go. I changed all the unit stats, in some cases I changed them back closer to their original values after finding out some of those problems. Anyway, I think if I were to make any suggestions it would be nice to be able to tweak operational movement of aircraft some. I think maybe they should work differently. My suggestion would be:

1) The normal mode - staging or whatever - should be 2x as great as say their range is, so that should be easier.

2) For other distances, they should load onto naval transports.

[arado234]

Baron the game being set so you dont have to worry about ship supply to much or that you can operate planes across the Pacific mostly benefits the Allies,especially the Amis.Remember this game still doesnt represent the real power of American industrial might,plus the fact the Americans cant research the Atomic bomb.The Atomic when it does start to drop doesnst have the same effect it did in reality.Their is also no magic and to a lesser degree ,no Ultra.Possibly thses unhistoric things that are allowed may be there to offset the other historical realities not in the game?

[scottsmm]

Or it could have just been done to keep the game as simple as possible. It also allows it to become a beer and pretzels game without it. haha Willy I said it.