Baron Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 The US subs won the war by destroying the Japs merchant marine. In this game the sea lanes are very easy for the Japs to control at least until air power destroys the ports. The subs seem pretty much useless right now. I have lvl 4 subs on silent being bombed into the depths by the Japs and they never seem to get away (at least not as often as they did in WAW). The worst part is when those same lvl 4 subs run up against Jap destroyers that are level 1 and still come out worse than the DD's do. Has the formula been changed that deals with the diving to escape and plain old naval combat between subs and surface ships? It seems to me they are pretty much a waste of resources right now as they stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happycat Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 The US subs won the war by destroying the Japs merchant marine. In this game the sea lanes are very easy for the Japs to control at least until air power destroys the ports. The subs seem pretty much useless right now. I have lvl 4 subs on silent being bombed into the depths by the Japs and they never seem to get away (at least not as often as they did in WAW). The worst part is when those same lvl 4 subs run up against Jap destroyers that are level 1 and still come out worse than the DD's do. Has the formula been changed that deals with the diving to escape and plain old naval combat between subs and surface ships? It seems to me they are pretty much a waste of resources right now as they stand. I think they have a 25% chance of escape, which increases as research leads to upgrades. Until you get better capabilities, interdiction of convoy routes is not necessarily something that will work to the American advantage. For 1942, the subs best role is perhaps something like picket duty, to give you early warning of advances by the Kido Butai into areas where you'd rather not see them. I also like using them in the first half of 1942 to block straits such as the one between Java and Sumatra, and Java and Borneo. Nothing worse, for a Japanese carrier-driver in a hurry, than running into an American pig boat. I'm sure there are other uses for unimproved subs early in the war besides my suggestion. In any event, I don't think I would agree that they are a waste of resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John DiFool the 2nd Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 There's always been problems with the sub routines/convoy lane raiding. A system which works "okay" in the Atlantic may not work so well in the Pacific. The biggest problem is that while raw material convoys are modeled, albeit from just one main port, in Borneo or Sumatra, supply convoys running the other way (towards island outposts) are not, and a sub can't do much damage to a port without giving itself away. So the Japs likely can sit on that one convoy route and kill everything they see. Adding a few more routes might help, a bit. Hubert made his design decision and I respect it, even if I don't agree with it. Sadly the game I got as an alternative, which I won't name here, is riddled with tons of bugs right now (tho they are being patched, slowly but surely). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottsmm Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 There should be at level four tech a 65% dive rate. Maybe you were unlucky in that game and the 35% simply overtook the 65% more times than it should have. This refers to the US only. With this said you could always go into the editor and fix it. Hell if you want you could set it to 100% dive rate when attacked. Then you would have the perfect sub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 The American subs are actually very annoying. Half dozen of those guys floating around the board or in a pack can cause me Japanese stress. You end up wasting alot of time trying to sink one sub because of dives. End up giving away your position and getting off course of other goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LampCord Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I've had good luck with subs as Allies. I even posted about a month ago about a sub first strategy with the US that was very effective vs. AI. Not only do they make a good screen they do a pretty good job of cutting off supplies. And they can be devastating if you gang up on CV's! Sending them around en-mass in silent mode to hunt valuable enemy ships can be a very effective strategy. My attitude is that even if I lose a battle vs. Jap ships, I can much more easily replace the losses since the US gets like 950 MPP's per turn. Anything I can do to damage the Jap navy or cut Jap production wins the attrition war, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blashy Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 If you have 4 subs raiding and Japan is using air power to try and sink them then they are doing a GREAT job. Imagine if that air power was in China or elswhere. Plus the damage they cause to enemy ships hurts Japan since they have to continually repair. So in the end the subs are doing their job, costing Japan money in various ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LampCord Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 If you have 4 subs raiding and Japan is using air power to try and sink them then they are doing a GREAT job. Imagine if that air power was in China or elswhere. Plus the damage they cause to enemy ships hurts Japan since they have to continually repair. So in the end the subs are doing their job, costing Japan money in various ways. Right. Any way the US can divert or damage any Jap units early in the game from their primary tasks (China, Burma, the 'valuable' islands) hurts Japan in the long run. Even if its a net loss in terms of MPP's for the US player, its a net gain because those same assets weren't being used in China which desperately needs every MPP it can get. Its an indirect way of transferring MPP's to your Allies long before you can get ground units there to help them. That's why I love subs and air units early because those are the only US units that can engage the Japs right away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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