hcrof Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I came across an interesting issue whilst playing as the syrians. A platoon in BTR 60's came under fire and lost their command squad as his APC brewed up and this threw the other squads into a panic. Not a disaster I thoght to myself as I was able to drive the BTRs to a safe location and link them up with their company HQ. However, the men in the BTR's had vanished apart from one guy (With the little exclamation mark). I was even able to get my command squad into the BTR where they would have been. Surely as the BTR hadn't stopped moving, the men would still exist inside and the company HQ would be able to knock heads and get the men back to the front! I have a couple of savegames to illustrate my point (No comments on the tactics though, it was a stupid mistake ) Another point that I never really brought up before is that there is no elevation restrictions on the tank guns. Try putting a T-62 10m away from an 8 story building and targeting the top floor. The gun doesn't elevate far enough but the shot comes out at a crazy angle to take out the floor. Minor issues I know but it has punished me more than once! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Eddie- Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Press Alt+W to turn the shadows off. Try now;) I had this same problem, just a case of hitting Alt+W in game. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 I don't understand - maybe I didn't make myself clear. The men had routed, its just that they just didn't exist after that so I couldn't get them back. I understand that if they were in the open they could have run away but they were in the back of a BTR so they couldn't go anywhere. then my command squad could get in the vehicle with the last guy who had not disappeared when it should have been full of panicked men. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Eddie- Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Aaaah, right sorry, I thought you meant when you dismounted the squads you saw no men. Well I can't help you with the other problem but I'm sure someone around here will be able to. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmfan Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Can't comment on the men, but I've also noticed the lack of elevation restrictions on APC and tank cannons. I've noticed the M1 do what you described several times. I've also seen a BMP-1 fire at an impossible angle - it's doubly annoying because BMPs (1 and 2) have relatively restricted elevation and depression arcs for their cannons. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apocal Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I came across an interesting issue whilst playing as the syrians. A platoon in BTR 60's came under fire and lost their command squad as his APC brewed up and this threw the other squads into a panic. This is understandable. Not a disaster I thoght to myself... Only in the virtual world ...as I was able to drive the BTRs to a safe location and link them up with their company HQ. However, the men in the BTR's had vanished apart from one guy (With the little exclamation mark). I was even able to get my command squad into the BTR where they would have been. Surely as the BTR hadn't stopped moving, the men would still exist inside and the company HQ would be able to knock heads and get the men back to the front! I have a couple of savegames to illustrate my point (No comments on the tactics though, it was a stupid mistake ) Eh... you can use historical evidence to argue either way. Lots of cases of soldiers flat out refusing to continue after seeing what would be considered "minimal" casualties to a wargamer. I can imagine soldiers refusing to unass their track and simply leaving the door locked while the first sergeant beat on the door with his pistol. Another point that I never really brought up before is that there is no elevation restrictions on the tank guns. Try putting a T-62 10m away from an 8 story building and targeting the top floor. The gun doesn't elevate far enough but the shot comes out at a crazy angle to take out the floor. Minor issues I know but it has punished me more than once! Can't comment on the men, but I've also noticed the lack of elevation restrictions on APC and tank cannons. I've noticed the M1 do what you described several times. I've also seen a BMP-1 fire at an impossible angle - it's doubly annoying because BMPs (1 and 2) have relatively restricted elevation and depression arcs for their cannons. Much shennanigans is explained by this. I thought this was a CMx1 issue fixed in CMx2? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Another point that I never really brought up before is that there is no elevation restrictions on the tank guns. Try putting a T-62 10m away from an 8 story building and targeting the top floor. The gun doesn't elevate far enough but the shot comes out at a crazy angle to take out the floor. Yes, while this issue does not appear too often (not too many high building maps out there) it is something that should be fixed during the life-time of the Shock Force engine. Best regards, Thomm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hcrof Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 Yes, while this issue does not appear too often (not too many high building maps out there) it is something that should be fixed during the life-time of the Shock Force engine. True, but I just gave an exteme example that I did to test out my theory. Soviet tanks as far as I know cant elevate far enough to sweep even 2nd or 3rd story roof tops from street level and I tried to exploit that one game to find my guys getting pasted! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVulture Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I don't understand - maybe I didn't make myself clear. The men had routed, its just that they just didn't exist after that so I couldn't get them back. I understand that if they were in the open they could have run away but they were in the back of a BTR so they couldn't go anywhere. then my command squad could get in the vehicle with the last guy who had not disappeared when it should have been full of panicked men. That's normal CMSF behaviour. When a man routs, he simply disappears from the map (after the excalamtion mark shows). No coming back. Been that way since the start by design. Whether it will ever change back to the CMx1 version of routed men running off around the map, we'll have to wait and see. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrocles Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Can't comment on the men, but I've also noticed the lack of elevation restrictions on APC and tank cannons. I've noticed the M1 do what you described several times. I've also seen a BMP-1 fire at an impossible angle - it's doubly annoying because BMPs (1 and 2) have relatively restricted elevation and depression arcs for their cannons. wow! This is news to me regarding the gun elevation and depression issues in APCs and tanks. Thanks for the info. I'm sure I've seen this problem in the game, but I'm such a spazimodo that I never recognized it as faulty coding! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Yeah the elevation thing has been known for some time. IIRC it was harder to deal with than you'd think. Maybe to do with what happens when the turret is at an angle? I can't remember. But it's certainly already known about. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 The problem with modelling turret elevation restrictions is that it would cripple the AI. No way you could program an AI to handle things like that, not without causing a whole host of other pathfinding problems at least. Secondly, the player has no way to know if a target is half a degree out of elevation or not. So a special UI would be needed just for this feature, and even then WeGo players would be screwed - you try to aim at target, find out that it's out of elevation. You choose to a slightly differently sloped position, wait one minute, and curse when the target is still out of elevation. Rinse and repeat... so it's something better left as it is. The vanishing men are routed, and are displayed in AAR as Missing In Action. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Can't comment on the men, but I've also noticed the lack of elevation restrictions on APC and tank cannons. I've noticed the M1 do what you described several times. I've also seen a BMP-1 fire at an impossible angle - it's doubly annoying because BMPs (1 and 2) have relatively restricted elevation and depression arcs for their cannons. Hmmh? BMP-2's 30mm gun has 74 degree maximum elevation and can engage helicopters. That's a better elevation than Bradley can do. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoex Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Stryker MGS can actually point its main gun through its own front slat armour . Looks like it's wrapped up for transport or sumfink 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmfan Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Hmmh? BMP-2's 30mm gun has 74 degree maximum elevation and can engage helicopters. That's a better elevation than Bradley can do. Are you sure? I may be I thinking of the BMP-1 then. I remember reading an article where this was found to be a pretty bad design flaw that was exploited in Afghanistan. Nonetheless, I still think both exceed real life limits in CMSF. I am fairly certain though that both versions of the vehicles do have definite issues with gun depression angles because of their hulls. Supposedly it makes it harder for crews to find good hull down positions; which is partly compensated for by the fact that they have relatively low profiles, but this in turn causes a problem when trying to shoot over the heads of advancing troops... though this makes me wonder why you would want to do that if you can at all avoid it. Puts a new twist on all the training films we use to watch from the 80s where hordes of mechanized Soviet troops where advancing across the Fulda Gap, grunts in the lead with AKs blazing away and BMPs behind them doing the same. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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