"Run for your Life!" issue version 1.11

[ThePhantom]

I don't know. It might just be me - However, I've witness my hard charging Marines receive direct fire and start running away. It happens a lot in Webwing's Red Pepper scenario. I have two problems with it. First, no Marine platoon is going to run away like that. I watched my first and second squads high tail it in the other direction. Leaving their platoon commander on the front line pinned. When I attempted to stop their order it reappeared. They wanted, "The hell out of there!!!" I even attempted to have the platoon commander fire on them, nothing works. Second, as they run away, half the squads are being dropped (wounded or killed). These were regular units. I seriously don't think they would perform this type of withdrawal. I've seen the bad guys do it too. Again, my guys run out of ammo dropping them as they pathetically attempt to run away!!! Is it just me? I know I'm biased about the Corps and feel shame when I see this happening. However, it's happening a lot. This is happening a lot more than I have seen before. Anybody else notice this???

[Paper Tiger]

These were regular units

I see this behaviour a LOT with regular experience units but rarely with veterans although it still happens when things are REALLY tough. While I am playing as the Syrian side, appparently the experience modifiers for both armies (US and Syrian) are the same.

I know I'm biased about the Corps and feel shame when I see this happening. However, it's happening a lot. This is happening a lot more than I have seen before.

Given that US troops generally receive better training than most other country's soldiers, and CERTAINLY the Syrians, they should probably start with a base experience level of veteran. Play the game with unrealistic experience settings, you get unrealistic results. I remember getting really pissed a while ago playing a mission that had conscript -2 led US troops going up against Elite +2 Syrians. Sure it was desperately challenging to play as the Blue player but of course, it was nothing but pure fantasy or escapism.

[MikeyD]

Well, this isn't exactly the sort of unit behavior that gets written-up in 'Stars and Stripes' but even veteran troops wouldn't be particularly enthused about being ordered to charge into a deathtrap. You'd better not abuse you pixel troopers too badly. One night you may forget to turn youir computer off and a disgruntled pixel pfc might roll a grenade into your tent while you're sleeping! :eek:

[meade95]

In limited play-testing thus far with 1.11....I agree, I think the U.S. side should be tweaked a bit to make sure "routing" (running away from fire) doesn't happen so often....(even with "regular" troops / grunts).

[ThePhantom]

Well, this isn't exactly the sort of unit behavior that gets written-up in 'Stars and Stripes' but even veteran troops wouldn't be particularly enthused about being ordered to charge into a deathtrap. You'd better not abuse you pixel troopers too badly. One night you may forget to turn youir computer off and a disgruntled pixel pfc might roll a grenade into your tent while you're sleeping! :eek:

MikeyD,

I'm not jeopardizing my guys in a deathtrap (War is hell and they better get use to it!). I've just advanced the little bastards near the objective. When they receive fire (light to moderate) they start running away. Hey, try it. Play Webwing's Red Pepper and try to take the objective. Half of the platoons want no part of even getting close to the Crossroads objective. Truthfully, something has changed in version 1.11. I think Battlefront may have added a, "Run for your life" calculation that is tweaked too high. My little pixel troopers are acting like a bunch of pu??ies. I can tell you right now their actions wouldn't be in the Stars and Stripes and they not going to get any medals either.

PS If one of them gets the balls to sneak up on me and pitch a grenade.... it better take me out. I know if I get a chance to shoot back he will simply run away! Seriously, my digital Marines would not even think about assaulting anything.... They're too scared of being shot at.

[Paper Tiger]

I think Battlefront may have added a, "Run for your life" calculation that is tweaked too high

That's as may be or... the Marines experience level is just set WAY too low in that scenario to give you a believable result. An exciting and entertaining one, certainly, but not realistic. Because of the huge disparity between the two armies, in my opinion, even the very best units the Syrians have, Republican Guard, Special Forces or Airborne, should rarely rate better than Regular when fighting with the US and everything else they have should be green at best but mostly conscript. Meanwhile, US troops, especially Marines, should really start as veteran with a fair mix of Crack units and for the best US formations, crack/elite.

The 'run for your life' calculation produces good results and is probably quite realistic when you play the game with these settings so let's not judge it from playing fantasy scenarios where the Syrian side is the better trained and experienced of the two sides. I have been playtesting a number of Red v Red missions with veterans going up against conscripts and I really like what I'm seeing. To solve your problem, open the mission up in the editor, change all the Marines units to a minimum of veteran and some crack units and try it again. If you play Marines missions with 'woosie' settings then expect them to behave like wooses. Or you can make them like they are in real life.:cool:

[cmfan]

Hmm, I don't know. I've had my Marines run away while playing a couple of scenarios since 1.11 and see nothing wrong with the behavior.

Sorry, it may be my bias against Marines' self-image but my pixelated leather necks have only run when I do something insane/dumb with them like tasking a single fire team to charge a building full of Syrians or I keep a squad in a building being pounded by a T-90. To me that seems like sensible behavior on their part and I think it has actually saved some of them.

As for experience and moral discrepancies between Marines and Syrians. I'm not sure what the "realistic" setting should be for each type of unit to tell you the truth. Whatever makes the scenario more enjoyable to play given the objectives?

[ThePhantom]

cmfan, it's not tasking a fire team it is tasking a full rifle company. Play Red Pepper by Webring - You will see it happen often enough. Paper Tiger, you are correct it is the experience of the Marines that makes the difference. I felt changing Webring's settings was cheating but it had to be done. I couldn't win with them as regular. With veteran Marines I achieved a solid victory. However, my ego is gone, I'm no longer the computer general I thought I was.

[cmfan]

cmfan, it's not tasking a fire team it is tasking a full rifle company. Play Red Pepper by Webring - You will see it happen often enough. Paper Tiger, you are correct it is the experience of the Marines that makes the difference. I felt changing Webring's settings was cheating but it had to be done. I couldn't win with them as regular. With veteran Marines I achieved a solid victory. However, my ego is gone, I'm no longer the computer general I thought I was.

Oh, a whole company. That's different. I have the scenario but haven't played it yet.

Hehe, if you want your ego deflated play the "Forging Iron" campaign by George MC. He also has the red forces set to Crack and Elite on top of having excellently crafted scenarios and maps that make you earn your stripes. I started to grumble about the level of experience the Syrians had, but he pointed out the campaign is supposed to simulated Blue vs. OPFOR at NTC. It made sense then.

[Webwing]

Funny!

Two things.

First: Regarding my scenario. I degraded the Marines in v1.0 of this mission because they were always so brave it was a bit too easy for my taste. It was also a way to compensate for the better weapons they have. The idea is an even infantry fight. You have better equipment, they have more numbers. I like infantry fights with a WWII flavor. Realistic? Depends on how you see it.

There is now a v1.1 where I have upgraded them and also given a bit more in terms of support following ThePhantoms feedback.

However I have not experience the sort of withdraws that ThePhantom is reporting in all my testings with v1.0. So I guess it also has to do with style of play. I´m very careful when I advance.

Second. Regarding troops withdraw in general. They don´t just run away now. In 1.11 troops retreat when under heavy attack but they regroup and fight again. That makes the enemy AI much more alive and dangerous. But yes, it is not very nice when it happens to your own soldiers but it is actually a defensive move that my save their lives.

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[theFightingSeabee]

Anyone will scatter under direct attack. There are times when Marines will go above that, put their lives in the back seat, and charge ahead. I think that scattering while under direct fire is absolutely realistic. What the game does lack, is the ability for a soldier/Marine to go into situations of certain doom without regard of their own life. For example: in the game, you'll never see a guy run out and grab an injured man and drag him out of the kill zone. You can only wait or run out and probably die or run away. Maybe if we had a one time use Heroic action movement command, we could have some heroism, which is a part of all battles.

[Paper Tiger]

Maybe if we had a one time use Heroic action movement command, we could have some heroism, which is a part of all battles

funnily enough, I see very heroic behaviour quite frequently in the game but I guess a lot of it just goes unnoticed, just like real life. I've seen one solitary soldier giving buddy aid to his wounded dying squad mates in between getting up and fighting off attacking enemy infantry successfully.

[Webwing]

To me the game mechanics are very realistic and life like in 1.11. A great improvement IMO.

The problem ThePhantom experienced was mostly my fault. In most scenarios made by others the Marines will rarely have such low levels of experience. So ThePantom was used to playing them in a style according to that.

In my scenario I was not worried about representing real Marines. I wanted a very active AI enemy and very challenging infantry mission. I tweaked all the parameters until I got what I wanted. Like I wrote in the summary this was mostly used for testing. Enemy AI testing actually.

By the way the way the enemy AI uses mortars is awesome! Very scary!

[Delta228]

I haven't run into too many situations where this is a problem, because with the right menuvering, you can generally keep most of your men out of deep sh**. I enjoy realistic things like this, they are what set CMSF apart from "normal" strategy games. When your life is on the line, you will make a decision , whether it be flee, return fire and grit your teeth, or cower and probably die. The inclusion of the first one is vital for the experience to feel real.

But what happens when the marines have nowhere to fall back to tho? I'm making a CMSF version of the Battle for LZ X-Ray, and my veteran Marines squads keep falling back (which I don't blame them for, cuz they are recieving a helluvalot of enemy fire) into the center of the LZ, however, is there a point where they are forced to make a "last stand"?

[dima]

Yes, guys, don't confuse this behavior with "Run for your Life". They are not panicking, they are not Broken. They simply feel that to stay in that position is suicidal. Sure, you, as a player may think it isn't but these virtual solders still value their lives. After all, you are sitting in a comfy chair, looking at a brand new 24" LCD and drinking beer, while they, in their universe are being shot at. And it doesn't matter if they are Cracks. If you don't protect your men, if your order them to assault unsuppressed building with lots of AK-47's inside, it doesn't matter what experience your men are - 7.62 bullets will penetrate conscripts just as well as Elite troops.

We have tweaked this behavior during 1.11 beta testing many times and what we've got now feels like just the right balance.

[SlapHappy]

Balance is everything. I've a test scenario where I have RED advancing across open ground against a few entrenched Marines on a slope top which include heavy and medium MG support.

When setting the RED units to conscript they are almost useless. But as I slowly ramped up the experience level of RED, the troops became much more effective. By the time I had advanced them to Veteran level, they were not only able to effectively return fire, but were actually able to advance to within assault range of the trenches. This is all moderated, of course, by the amount of firepower you are able to bring to bear against the enemy. I was able to offset the experience increase by dropping more BLUE troops/firepower in the trenches.

This is also where I noticed the huge difference in firepower between the 50 cal MG's and the 7.62 mediums.

[ThePhantom]

I know now why they run…… In Webwing’s Red Pepper scenario I advance two platoons of hard charging Marines towards the center of the map. There are four trench lines going up a hill. I call it the amphitheater. My first platoon occupies the first three trenches. My second platoon passes them to the fourth and final trench. Here’s the kicker….. The second platoon (runs for their lives) withdraws back down the hill. Why? Is it because they are being overwhelmed by mass firepower?…. No. Is it because I have madly rushed them forward with little regard for their lives? … No. What’s really going on is a flippin battalion of enemy reinforcements are near the area. I do believe my digital amigos are running to safety because of this. I bet there is a calculation of, “How many enemies are in the unit’s vicinity.” This is one of the determining factors in, “The run for your life.” Don’t get me wrong – I like it. I’ll just have to start acting more army style then Marine….. That’s ok.

[Webwing]

Ok. After all this talk I decided to run my own tests.

Map. Flat with only on big slope running in the middle from east to west.

Situation: Marines to the south and Syrians to the north with no LOS to each other due to the slope in the middle.

Marines will move to crest and thus make contact with the enemy.

Blue: 2 squads of Marines.

Squad 1: Crack, Fanatic and +2 Leadership

Squad 2: Conscript, Poor and -2 Leadership

Red:

In test one I had 3 Republican Guard Mech companies!

In test two only 3 squads.

Results:

In test one: Both squads got to the top and soon moved back redeploying. Difference was that squad one(Crack) lost a lot more men before deciding to move back while squad two redeployed immediately losing only one man.

Test two: Both squads stood in the crest but squad one(Crack) fought all the time, while squad two was panicking all the time.

So redeploying is directly influenced by the size of the opposing force ( like ThePhantom noticed ) rather than ANY settings of the units.

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[Meach]

I had a QB where Marines and Syrians advanced, met, had a scrap and both sides ran away. Only to have to advance and do it all again. I was quite bemused by the behaviour but saw the funny side of it. The objective remained uncontested.

[ThePhantom]

I agree Webwing and Meach, I noticed this while I was playing Red Pepper. I had a scout sniper team view the rush of bad guys north of my two Marine platoons. The rush of bad guys were not actually advancing towards the Marines position but to their right flank (heading South East). I watched one Marine squad after another squad withdrawal down the hill. They were receiving light small arms fire but nothing to force a withdrawal.

Adding to my discovery, I countered the enemy advancing force with a Marine platoon and several machine gun teams. As the enemy approached my blocking force I noticed the enemy reacting in about the same way. They were attacking piecemeal across the grassy field on the East side of the map. As each enemy squad entered my kill zone they would take fire and then run as quickly as possible in the other direction.

Realistic, you bet. Both my Marine platoons and the bad guys were in bad positions. Not only did they realize they were outnumbered they felt the need to find a better location. I was attempting to smash through the enemy through its center. My guys didn't like the plan all that much. The enemy was trying to flank my force by running two companies around my forward position. They realized they had entered a kill zone and, "Ran for their lives" in the other direction. All Battlefront has done is make it more difficult to kill the bad guys…. It's just not as simple as it once was. If you don't realize how big your opposing force is your men will remind you. Every time you force them forward they'll run right back! They will all have that same expressionless look on their face too, that makes it even more frustrating.

[Paper Tiger]

So redeploying is directly influenced by the size of the opposing force ( like ThePhantom noticed ) rather than ANY settings of the units.

I certainly wasn't aware that the strength of the opposition the units are facing had any bearing on the 'Run for your life' factor. That is a pretty nifty piece of programming and thanks to you guys for discovering it. This opens up some rather intriguing possibilities for later. However, unit experience definitely influences it too. You see a big difference in this behaviour when you change a units experience from Regular to Veteran. That's the reason why you made them 'Regular' in the first place, because they so brave it was a bit too easy for your taste.

[Webwing]

Paper Tiger,

Experience sure play a big role in the way units behave. But not in the redeploying routine though. At least not in any of my tests.

But experience has a very important part in balancing scenarios.

For instance if experience is too low you are unable to give orders to your units, since they will be panicking or something. Also, they won´t even fire at the enemy and sometimes will not even follow your orders. I also suspect (since I haven´t really tested this in isolation) that it affects accuracy of their shooting among other things.

So it is a very important thing to consider, just not an issue for redeployment of units.

This, I confess, was a surprise to me but does make sense when you think about it.

[Pandur]

regular US guys are quiet ok. especially for this scenario. played red pepper yesterday, scored a draw, hard mission, but i have had only 2 teams run away once. i think the US guys are still more than stoic enough to do the job.

on the other hand the syrians i kept back in a massive wave(about 30-40 guys or bit more) on the right wing wich was ever going back and forth as they ran away and came back again to ran away once more to come back...and so on. a 60mm mortar barrage solved that in the end.

means nearly "all" the syrians on the right wing ran away not just one or two teams or squads at local hotspots. so there is still big difference between red and blue and if your regular US guys are busting out in red pepper its more likely that you do something wrong on your end. dont push that hard and they wont push back.

but dont blame the game or the expirience level.

[ThePhantom]

Pandur,

You’re missing the point. Granted, I could take my time and slowly push across the map. If I had done that I would not have noticed the “Run for your life” withdrawal too. However, I don’t play to draw. A draw is a loss if you’re the US player anyway. The Marine Corps is designed to assault the enemy and destroy them by firepower and maneuver. There is no taking your time. If you use your forces more aggressively, you will notice a change in their frontline performance quickly. However, please do not think I’m blaming anything. I enjoy the game. I simply wanted to know if anybody else noticed the “Run for your life.” By the way – The “Run for your life” phrase I keep using is for laughs. It really is a “Run to better cover.” When I first wrote my thread I felt my Marines were running away. No Marine Corps platoon is going to run from a fight. Especially since I noticed there was limited small arms fire in the area. Something was different, plain and simple. What I discovered and what was confirmed in these threads is if your forward elements come In contact with a numerically superior force, there is a real good chance those forward elements will disengage contact and withdrawal to positions behind them. This is new to 1.11 version and it is noticeable if you are accustomed to advancing your forces rather than allowing the enemy to come to you.

[Paper Tiger]

I couldn't win with them as regular. With veteran Marines I achieved a solid victory.

from post 8

I degraded the Marines in v1.0 of this mission because they were always so brave it was a bit too easy for my taste

from post 10

I don't understand guys. Now you're both saying that changing the Marines experience level (ThePhantom up, Webwing down) had no influence on this aspect of the game? I'm not arguing with you, I just don't have the time to spend doing experiments on this right now and it's a very important new feature and I'd like to understand how it works too.