arado234 Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 You have to wonder if the world would have accpepted a negotiated peace with the Axis when you consider who you are attempting to make peace with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottsmm Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 True. Remember Churchill, and his stubborness. Also what about after the Casablanca conference in which was when the great three decided on not accepting anything less then an unconditional surrender by the Axis powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arado234 Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 As far as the Axis being able to win outright when you consider the missed opportunities by both sides then yes Retributar is correct.The Axis early on had some HUGE opportunties that they just threw away for various reasons. -When Germany had a chance to easily wipe out the B.E.F.in 1940 that would have left England virtually defenceless on the ground.Germany then could have Para. droped onto England,grabbed some airfields and start bringing in airlanding troops(like on Crete)It would have been a big gamble but if it had worked Britain may have sued for peace on German terms(that would sure be pleasant). -Next when Germany attacks Russia go in as''liberators''not butchers and have most of western Russia join your side(which they were willing to do at first).This would most likley force Stalin to move his troops from watching the Japs to defend against Germany and her Russian Allies.This would be the time for Japan to attack Russia from the East.Russia would be in ALOT of trouble.There would be a good chance then of another revolt(like in WW1)and with Germany having the most influence by far would have easily put in a pro Nazi govt. in Russia.Now the outlook of the war changes dramaticlly. The problem with this plan is that it required total co-opperation between the Axis which didnt happen. Once England survived 1940 and Hitler went on with his lunitic plans and Japan though it a good idea to attack America(more Lunacy)BYE-BYE Axis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuniworth Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 As far as the Axis being able to win outright when you consider the missed opportunities by both sides then yes Retributar is correct.The Axis early on had some HUGE opportunties that they just threw away for various reasons. -When Germany had a chance to easily wipe out the B.E.F.in 1940 that would have left England virtually defenceless on the ground.Germany then could have Para. droped onto England,grabbed some airfields and start bringing in airlanding troops(like on Crete)It would have been a big gamble but if it had worked Britain may have sued for peace on German terms(that would sure be pleasant). -Next when Germany attacks Russia go in as''liberators''not butchers and have most of western Russia join your side(which they were willing to do at first).This would most likley force Stalin to move his troops from watching the Japs to defend against Germany and her Russian Allies.This would be the time for Japan to attack Russia from the East.Russia would be in ALOT of trouble.There would be a good chance then of another revolt(like in WW1)and with Germany having the most influence by far would have easily put in a pro Nazi govt. in Russia.Now the outlook of the war changes dramaticlly. The problem with this plan is that it required total co-opperation between the Axis which didnt happen. Once England survived 1940 and Hitler went on with his lunitic plans and Japan though it a good idea to attack America(more Lunacy)BYE-BYE Axis. The only problem with what you are saying Arado is as always that it depends on the other side doing nothing. But in war sides act and react all the time. The truth is that their were tons of more missed opportunities for the allies and the Soviet Union then there were for the axis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arado234 Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Kuniworth im not saying the Allies didnt miss some big opportunities(especially when all they had to do when Hitler first marched into the Rhineland was stand up to him same with the Czec. debacle he was done),im saying once the war started and the Axis had the early atvantage then they had a small window of opportunity to cause some real problems.Once the war was past the early critical stage the Axis were done.Didnt really matter about missed opportunities then because the Allies could afford to miss more than the Axis and still wipe them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LampCord Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Key word for Japan is QUICK. Everybody knew that Japan only had a limited ammount of time to win the war, and after that it was crapshoot. From my limited experience (4 games as allied vs. all 3 AI levels) I would say the key for Japan is Rangoon ASAP if they want to have any possible chance. If they take Rangoon early, the Brits are really hurting and struggle to hold on to India. OTOH, If the Allies hold on long enough to build up reinforcements, Japan is in big trouble because the extra MP's allow the UK to build up into a formidable opponent. What I have done as the Allies (after losing Rangoon in my first game and seeing the dire consequences) is use the 2 Chinese divisions, any Aussie divisions I can muster and US air to hold on as long as possible and later move MacArthur and the US units that arrive in the far southeast (1 corp, 1 arty, 1 armor) to Burma when available. If they arrive with Rangoon still in Allied hands, its enough to tip the balance to the point where I can drive the Japs completely out of Indochina by the end of 43. I'm sure a determined human player could defeat this strategy by using Japan's navy to first wipe out the UK navy and then support the attack on Burma but it works quite well vs. the AI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaMonkey Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I've made it just to Jan 44 on Blashy's recommended settings and I have to say that I agree with the crowd stating that a USSR entry on a Chinese surrender is both ahistorical and upsetting for play balance. Historically, it is as has been declared, Stalin would not have DoW ed Japan before the Germans were in their death throes, especially with Manchuria garrisoned. No garrisons....well...perhaps that is another matter. I've found China a bit too easy to conquer even at Expert +2, but when the Russians come in, its really a tough go and this is in late 43. So here you have it, 44 beckons, and there is pressure, lots of pressure from all points of the compass. Reds are over powered, Japan cannot contain them for long. USA sniping with Paras and Amphibs on the northern home islands. Commonwealth healthy and aspiring in Burma and the Indian Ocean. Allied airpower is crippling and fast Carrier task forces skirt the southern shores of the Co-Prosperity Sphere extending the Nip navy. All of this seems consistent with historical potentials except of course with USSR early entry. Its good...real good, but it's not excellent ....yet....strictly speaking for this preliminary assessment of Japan vs Allied AI....close though! I'm sure H to H is another world altogether, but still......Reds early????:confused: Someone convince me!:cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arado234 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I could see Stalin attacking in 1944 after the Russians wiped out Army group centre.By this time the Axis were done.I cant see Stalin passing up a chance to grab more land.Remember the Russians kick the Japs ass at Khalkin Gol in 1939.By 1944 they had way better tanks that would blow the Japs to bits.The Russians had also in 1940 infiltrated the Jap. high command with a spy network set up by Richard Sorge(code name Ramsay).They knew prettywell all of Japans moves and this would have been a huge asset in an attack on Japan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LampCord Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 The Russians had also in 1940 infiltrated the Jap. high command with a spy network set up by Richard Sorge(code name Ramsay).They knew prettywell all of Japans moves and this would have been a huge asset in an attack on Japan. Sounds like USSR should have intelligence level 5 in 1940 then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blashy Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I could see Stalin attacking in 1944 after the Russians wiped out Army group centre.By this time the Axis were done.I cant see Stalin passing up a chance to grab more land.Remember the Russians kick the Japs ass at Khalkin Gol in 1939.By 1944 they had way better tanks that would blow the Japs to bits.The Russians had also in 1940 infiltrated the Jap. high command with a spy network set up by Richard Sorge(code name Ramsay).They knew prettywell all of Japans moves and this would have been a huge asset in an attack on Japan. Grabbing land is easy, controlling it as an occupier is a pain. Stalin would (IMHO) not have been interested in anything more than Manchuko and maybe Korea. He could easily have achieved this goal by joining as late as summer of 1945. Before hand he could watch his future enemies do all the dirty work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottsmm Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 True, and it only got easier as the Axis faded away, but then again I believe there was still close to a million Japs left in China at the wars outcome. I'm not 100% sure of this statistic, but I am sure of there still being a sizable jap force in Asia in August of 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaMonkey Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Now correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Battle of the Bulge occur after the destruction of AG Center? I wonder what would have happened if the 6th and 5th Panzer Armies had been loosed upon the Red Army? I wonder.... would the loss of 20 to 30 divisions impaired Stalin from offensive operations in the East? I mean.. if we're hypothesizing! Still early Russian entry into PTO?:confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I've noticed the ire that this hypothetical incursion of the Russians has incurred upon our population! It appears to me that it boils down to the realism (historic) crowd and the what-if crowd. For the most part PTO is historical, due to the heavy scripting of events. When something happens that is game changing (Russian introduction) that is largely ahistorical, it will rankle the fur of the realism crowd. I will propose a mod that would be totally what-if. Take out historical scripting and the time factor, make victory based on total obliteration of the enemy, raise the tech level limits for all, and randomize initial unit placements and OoBs (or not). Playability will be exponentially increased and no one will be bewildered when the Russian enter in 43. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaMonkey Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Actually Stitch all this is inconsequential in relation to Global SC. With PTO there is a need to present an abstraction of the ETO effect, so scripting of events and the appearance of forces teleported in is necessary. Once the SC edition goes global those PTO elements will be unnecessary and we will definitely have the WW2 "what if" we have all been after, that middle road between Axis/Allies and WiF. Anybody got any input to what's up after Global SC? My vote is a modern simulation of world conflict with the Supreme Ruler theme. My thoughts are we may need some additional computing power. I'm sure...its awhile down the road, if at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfpack Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Anybody got any input to what's up after Global SC? Cold War please. Hasn't been a good computer 80's Russian steamroller game since Red Lightning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arado234 Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 SeaMonkey Army group centre was destroyed in june 1944,way before the Ardennes attack.The Germans had no plan to attack in the East because even if they did destroy a bunch of Russian units it wouldnt matter because the Russians had loads and they had alot bigger and better tanks then we did.Plus the distance traveled for the Bulge used up prettywell all available fuel reserves.A big part of the German attack in the West depended on capturing Allied fuel dumps.Since alot of the Russian vehicles were diesel and most German vehicles were gas the fuel wouldnt have been much good to Germany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaMonkey Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Understand arado, I was using the BofB example to show that hypothetically things could have been different. I mean after all a Red Army attack on Japanese positions in 43, or even 44 is a little bit different than history. In keeping with historical character, do you think Stalin's paranoia could have been capitalized on by a large scale attack that the 5th & 6th Pz Armies represented? My conclusion, and it is just that, conjecture, is the game simulates a scenario a bit farfetched for the timeline. Not saying it wasn't possible, just pointing out the inconsistency as related to some of the other scripted historical events. Again, a trivial matter in regards to the Global SC game we are sure to see in the near future where all the decisions will rest with the players in a WW2 context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottsmm Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Army group Center was destroyed basically on June 22, 1944. Does this date have a historic meaning or what (for Russia). Think about it Napoleon Bonaparte invaded Russia on this date, Hitler did the same, and the Russians repaid Germany for it on the same date. It should be a holiday for the Russians, because of what has happenend on that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuniworth Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Army group Center was destroyed basically on June 22, 1944. Does this date have a historic meaning or what (for Russia). Think about it Napoleon Bonaparte invaded Russia on this date, Hitler did the same, and the Russians repaid Germany for it on the same date. It should be a holiday for the Russians, because of what has happenend on that day. Sure operation bagration was a victory but it was far from the fantastic performance it later became famous to be. If you count killed and wounded soviet losses were much higher than the germans and would estimate far beyond 700,000+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottsmm Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Kuniworth, Every battle between Germany and the USSR, there were always more casualties on the USSR side then the German side. It really didn't matter though to the Soviets, because they would simply replace all there losses with brand new conscripts, but Germany in mid to late 44' was running into a man shortage problem. It was at this point that 5 years of a long bloody war was taking it's tool on the German Civilians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stitch Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Kuniworth, Every battle between Germany and the USSR, there were always more casualties on the USSR side then the German side. It really didn't matter though to the Soviets, because they would simply replace all there losses with brand new conscripts... Yep, this is when the original "zerg" tactic was created! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arado234 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Good point SeaMonkey.Its hard to say what Stalin would have done if the Germans launched their attack in the East(depends on how successful the German attack was).I would think the West would have moved into Germany faster and this probably would have freaked out Stalin.He imho would have figured the Allies to stab him in the back and take Berlin.I then cant see him ever attacking the Japs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retributar Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Hello!: I think that i am at march 6th/1943,...and so far it's been a 'hell-of-a-mind-bending experience!!!'. The JAPANESE [Whom I Presently Represent] have undergone absolute hell to maintain any viable postioning at all!. My situation has had many unforseen situations develop that i ignorantly thought would not occur in that WW2 Campaign!,...and so i have been caught with my 'Pants-Down' many times more than once,...& even so...i have still not yet lost the war!. My greatest aggrivation is how the 'Russians' come on so overwhelmingly-strongly in the game in early 1943!. "They-Wreck-The-Game-Completely" [Or-Can],...even if i have been so-far been able to control their iirrational-incursion!. Otherwise!,...so-far!,...a 'Great-Game!' has been borne'!. Hail 'Carter!!!'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaMonkey Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Retri, is this your first game against the AI? I have to concur, I'm just now getting into May 44 and I'm being pummelled from all directions although the Jap. Armed Forces are holding their own. Massive ebb and flow as my core airforce is moving from one crises to another, I'm on almost total defense except in Burma and USSR where a huge attrition of my resources is going on. Trying an inner ring defensive effort with many mobile reserves awaiting in the build Q as well as two half Navy, half Airforce groups operating north to south.:confused: The issue is in doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retributar Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Hello SeaMonkey!: YES!!!,...you 'Salty-Sea-Dog!',...this is my '1st-game' against the 'AI'! [Operazione' "Z"!]. That RUSSIAN involvement THING???...need's to be "EXCISED/REMOVED!...OUT-OF-THE-GAME!" [bAD-GAME-FEATURE!]. They nearly have MORE Ground Units Than the 'Entire-JAPANESE-EMPIRE' has???. Not only that,...but Germany is supposed to still be invading Russia [Right???], or at least in the latter stages of that effort,...or being rolled back to Berlin!,...depending on what your time-frame is!. 'And...here',...'in my game',...the Russian's have nearly more ground forces than i do??? [Go-Figure???]...not counting/including the Indian-Army Hordes,...the Communist Chinese Hordes,...the other regular Chinese Hordes,...the Australian Hordes,...the American Hordes & the British Hordes???,...Et-Al',...Etc!!!...Etc!!!. The JAPANESE never would have started WW2 in the PACIFIC if they knew that the Russian's would kiss & make-up GOOD...with GERMANY in a great-big-hurry...in order to use their entire War-Machine to attack Japanese interest's!. Also!,...i don't like how the 'AI' can ALWAY'S seem to spot my 'Aircraft-Carriers' [& Sink Them] with EASE,...while i rarely can ever see theirs???. The 'AI' ground units seem to usually be able to attack across Rivers with IMPUNITY!,...and SURVIVE THESE IDIOTIC ATTACK'S!. The 'AI' can attack a strongly ENTRENCHED UNIT,...across a river and kick the 'Brown-Chunks' out of it???,...while usually sustaining little to no-casualties???...and inflicting as much or more harm than they receive!. I think that the 'Cheat-Slider' has been slightly overadjusted/overused in it's favor?. EVEN SOooo!!!,...with all of my complaining, i still enjoy the game!. I would enjoy it much more without ROOSKIE-INVOLVEMENT!!!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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