dieseltaylor Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 And heres how: [no need for chads] Ten thousand New Jersey voting machines produced by Sequoia Voting Systems are highly vulnerable to tampering, according to a Princeton University report published Friday on a judge’s orders. The release is the result of a lawsuit instituted by Democratic lawmakers and Coalition for Peace Action. Someone trying to manipulate the Nov. 4 election could install vote-stealing software on the machines in as little as eight minutes. And anyone at a polling place can easily change or eliminate votes, by either purposefully or accidentally pressing particular buttons located on the electronic, touch screen-equipped machines, the Princeton Packet reports. ”You can easily change the outcome of an election in a very low-tech way, said Professor Penny Venetis of the Rutgers University Constitutional Litigation Clinic, which has led the four-year legal challenge of the machines. http://government.zdnet.com/?p=4126 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSBoxer Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 and democrats can in with the help of ACORN and voter fraud. Corruption is a virtue exclusive to neither party, throw them all out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted October 20, 2008 Author Share Posted October 20, 2008 MSB. True. Two party systems bring out the worst as compromising has no benefit. Voting with proportional representation is more likely to prevent abuse. Voting machines suck and should not be allowed 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSBoxer Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 I would also like to get rid of "early" voting for a variety of reasons. The constitution gives a date for elections, if ya wanna change that then get an amendment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarquelne Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 and democrats can in with the help of ACORN and voter fraud. Corruption is a virtue exclusive to neither party, throw them all out. Cool. Now ACORN just needs to figure out how to make the jump from registration fraud - the thing they're actually accused of and which seems to do nothing more than waste their time - to actual mass voter fraud. But don't let me get in the way of your presenting the danger of ACORN/registration fraud as equivalent to the danger inherent in poorly secured tally machines. Your conclusion is OK... Well, OTOH, why should we assume an independent it going to be corruption free? Sure, they won't have a party machine to help them be corrupt but as self-starters I'm sure they can cope, should they care to. The best solution is informed voters. And if you think ACORN is in the same league of threat as voting machines, MSB, you're not part of that solution. So far as I know voting machines have never been used to commit mass fraud. The problem is that if they ever are it may be bloody difficult to find out. Registration fraud, OTOH, is significantly checked by every state's voting procedures. Heck, the only guy I know of who's been arrested for registration fraud - a Republican hired by the state GOP, btw - only managed to screw up people's party affiliation, IIRC. They may have lost votes in the primary but not in the general. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSBoxer Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 You must not be following the news out of Ohio where improperly registered voters have already voted thanks to a very broad interpretation of the law http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/strange-happenings-during-ohio-early-voting-period/ And while an indictment is not the same as an arrest which is still not a conviction there have been indictments in WI, FBI raids in Nevada and irregularities in IL (nothing new) and a handful of other states. Election fraud is a crime be it in the polling machine or in the roll of eligible voters. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarquelne Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 You must not be following the news out of Ohio where improperly registered voters have already voted thanks to a very broad interpretation of the law http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/strange-happenings-during-ohio-early-voting-period/ First of all, note the article is centered around questionable registration laws/rulings, not ACORN-style bogus registration. Bogus registration would help a lot but the essential bit is the gamed rules. Secondly, since every single thing I've ever fact-checked from Pajama's media has turned out to be deceptive, if not bogus, I have indeed stopped frequenting the site. So yeah, in that way I'm not "following the news." Looking at the story I see the "news" is based on some inconclusive anecdotes from 2 partisan blogs. Well and good, but that's the same sort of crap I spent way too much time last election looking up on Snopes. Of course, in this case it's too penny ante to show up on Snopes... Thirdly, please note this passage from the Palestra.net blog: As the rest of the world focuses on ACORN and registration fraud, Tiffany and I have been looking at another issue concerning actual voter fraud: RESIDENCY. "acutal voter" fraud, not registration. And not ACORN. Note also that, to pick an example case, she found 13 regisitrations and 2 votes and she seems to have concluded that the voters have left the country. No mention of who the others are. No 13 votes. So... maybe some registration fraud, *maybe* some voter fraud. Maybe not. If you get more I'll be glad to see it - assuming it's from a more interesting source. But if that's all you've got I still think you're not part of the solution. Pajamas Media is the place you should go to get fed a partisan line, not to keep informed. Sure, sometimes is may be because the supposedly liberal media can't be bothered to report the truth. More often, though, it's because the conservative/liberal sites are making mountains out of molehills. As DT has said, there's corruption in both parties. Brunner may be an especially bad expression of it, but there's still a long way to go from "I don't like this." ("OMG! HELPING enfranchise voters!!!") to worrisome amounts of fraud. And, please note, unlike what the machines do, this stuff can all be checked. There are places/people to investigate, paper trails. Election fraud is a crime be it in the polling machine or in the roll of eligible voters. Theft is a crime, and so is catfish noodling. I lock my doors but I don't put cameras around the lake. Some threats are significant, some threats... aren't. Registration fraud sucks but, based on a few anecdotes from suspect sources I still maintain it isn't in the same league with the potential threat from voting machines. Registration fraud may be real, present, and active, but it's about the same threat to democracy as Al Quida. ie, none, unless people get worked up into an irrational froth about it. All this ACORN BS, IMO, is thrown out there for either a good old "stabbed in the back" theory to explain a GOP loss, or, perhaps more likely, the same-old-same-old ****-throwing at every apparently-liberal institution, cause, or person places like PM can make a superficially plausible case against. The point isn't information, it's getting you riled up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSBoxer Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Look, I pointed out that there is corruption on both sides to show that it is the system that is faulty. We can go back and forth all day citing wrongs by both sides if you want to, but what is the point. To claim the only way republicans to win is to tamper with the polling machines is as disingenuous as claiming that the only way the Dems can win is to stuff the ballot box. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarquelne Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Look, I pointed out that there is corruption on both sides to show that it is the system that is faulty. How much and where the system is faulty is important. Voting machines are a potentially huge threat that seems under-appreciated. ACORN, OTOH, is the opposite. You seemed to be equating them, and if so that's a big mistake. I'm pretty sure DT's point wasn't that the GOP are corrupt, but rather about how big a threat the voting machines are. And of course the system is faulty - that should be assumed. Faulty registration procedures and could be improved a lot - but we've survived so far. A problem with the voting machines may be nastier by several magnitudes. To claim the only way republicans to win is to tamper with the polling machines is as disingenuous as claiming that the only way the Dems can win is to stuff the ballot box. I very much doubt he was being disingenuous - If the polls are right then tampering with the polling machines really may be the only way they can win. I doubt they (or anyone) could currently pull it off on a large-scale without getting caught... eventually... but maybe not a few cycles from now. And if someone really does do it right it's going to be an absolutely huge PITA to prove. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJK Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Cool. Now ACORN just needs to figure out how to make the jump from registration fraud - the thing they're actually accused of and which seems to do nothing more than waste their time - to actual mass voter fraud. Perhaps Obambi should give them another $800k to figure it out? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Way to sound bitter and twisted Gary. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 GJK, Is Obambi some sort of Irish deer? All, When in doubt, vote the tombstones! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted October 21, 2008 Author Share Posted October 21, 2008 GJK. Perhaps it would be fairer for the Government to fund various organisations, of any persuasion, to hack the system. Then we should be able to rely on the various vested interests trying their darndest for the safest system : ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
costard Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Is there a mechanism for checking the machines? Any computer system is compromisable. How about this - an organisation randomly picks a significant sample of voting stations and asks the voters, on leaving, to vote again, this time on paper. Not perfect, but improves the probability of catching manipulation of the results. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Wait a tic...I thought Bush wasn't going to allow an election? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted October 21, 2008 Author Share Posted October 21, 2008 Is there a mechanism for checking the machines? Any computer system is compromisable. How about this - an organisation randomly picks a significant sample of voting stations and asks the voters, on leaving, to vote again, this time on paper. Not perfect, but improves the probability of catching manipulation of the results. There will be sufficient dickheads to lie - and you cannot guarantee that they will cancel each other out. I understand that the US , unlike a lot of countries, has more than one thing to be voted on which adds to the confusion - and leads people to machines. It would be more satisfactory to divorce the various votes and spread the voting dates about. Here is a sample of what is on offer in Sonoma County on November 4th: http://www.smartvoter.org/ca/sn/ You can work your way through all the choices : ) incidentally this is from Wired in 2004 The panel recommended that only one type of Diebold machine be decertified and that counties be required to take steps to secure remaining machines. In decertifying all of the machines and making counties prove that they can secure them before recertifying them, Shelley hoped to avoid conditions like those that arose in the March primary when several counties simply ignored directives that came from his office. The decision means that Kern, San Joaquin, San Diego and Solano counties will not be able to use the 15,000 or so AccuVote-TSx voting machines they purchased from Diebold. They will likely use optical-scan machines made by Diebold. In addressing the issue of Diebold's activity, Shelley described how the state had given the TSx system conditional certification in December only because Diebold had assured the state repeatedly that federal certification was imminent. But Shelley said the company lied and switched systems on the state. While counties had in their possession one version of the TSx that the company said was getting federally certified, the company had actually submitted a different, newer version of the TSx to federal authorities to certify. The system the four counties possess still is not federally certified. "That was despicable and that was misleading," Shelley said. Furthermore, the company had installed uncertified software on other Diebold machines in the state, violating California election law. "Their conduct was absolutely reprehensible. Their conduct should never be tolerated ever again by anyone in California," Shelley said. Trustworthy bunch. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
costard Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Hi Diesel - I'm talking stats - a good enough sample size would rule out the worst of variation due to individual reaction to the "second chance to vote" thing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philistine Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 I would also like to get rid of "early" voting for a variety of reasons. The constitution gives a date for elections, if ya wanna change that then get an amendment. Umm.... what date would that be? --Philistine 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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