Ahhh why can't you see him!? Or: How does the spotting work?

[Flanker15]

I'm having repeated issues with my units not seeing enemy units they should see.

My squad doesn't see a BMP on a hill with slight concealment at long range: that's fine and believable.

My squad doesn't see a T-72 moving towards it in a forest 30m away and still doesn't spot it until after it blows up half my guys: OMGWTF!

My BMP-2 doesn't see a BMP-1 parked 20m in front of it through 2 trees and then the BMP-1 precedes to spot my BMP-2 straight away and destroy it: Ahhhhh why god why!!!

Another BMP-2 flanks around to try and kill this annoying BMP-1 and "hunts" towards it with no obstructing terrain or trees, the BMP-1 spots the approaching BMP-2 at 100m and destroys my oblivious BMP-2 after turning 90o: :manly sobbing:

Discovering in the AAR that the BMP-1 has lower motivation and has much lower skill level:

[Flanker15]

Ohh well, guess you're going to have to use your imagination for what happens to my head in the last example.

I thought I'd specify that I'm wondering how the spotting system works at the moment and why these events happen.

[Moon]

Yes, imagining a head explode is much better than showing it in an animated GIF.

There is no firm answer to your examples. Unlike most other wargames, spotting in CMSF (and in fact this goes back to CM1-3) is not some kind of dice roll - now you see, now you don't. The game's engine uses quite complex algorithms, and no two situations are the same. If you post save games from the samples above, usually there is some very good reason for why something is spotted or not.

A few general reminders:

- facing counts! Units usually spot better to the front than to the side.

- is the spotting unit under fire? Or moving? Or doing something else?

- a slap-your-forehead-mistake made more often than people will want to admit: you have still a different unit selected than the spotting unit. What you see (in Veteran or Elite modes) is not what the spotting unit sees, but what the selected unit sees.

Having said that... the upcoming v1.1 has a lot of tweaks and improvements particularly to spotting (and related behaviour). Once released I am sure that your list of examples will be much shorter (but at the same time I doubt that it will ever go away completely. It never did for CM1-3)

[SlowMotion]

I'm having repeated issues with my units not seeing enemy units they should see.

...

My squad doesn't see a T-72 moving towards it in a forest 30m away and still doesn't spot it until after it blows up half my guys: OMGWTF!

In this case if they can't see the moving tank, they should spot it because of all the sound it makes. It seemed to me that in some earlier CMSF versions (maybe 4.05) sounds didn't affect spotting at all. I don't know if this has been changed any for the Marine module, but it would definitely improve spotting.

[BFCElvis]

Here is something to try next time you feel you're not spotting correctly. Click at an empty area of the map which unselects all units. If you can then see the enemy unit you expect to see then that means someone on your side has it spotted. Then click on the enemy unit and the icons for all friendly units that can see it are highlighted. If this doesn't give you the expected sighting then check if the unit is paniced or something like that. If you're still unsatisfied do as Moon says and make a save game so someone else can get some eyes on it.

I haven't seen what you describe in a very long time.

[c3k]

I have had a similar situation. Units, in good order, in a woods area. Two infantry squads. After the game, I found a BMP sitting within 15 meters of BOTH infantry units. The BMP had gone unspotted in its location for approximately 10 turns. I shrugged it off as a one-time glitch. It may be a one-off occurrance, or this could be the tip of a small programming error.

If there's interest, I may be able to dig up an old savegame.

Regards,

Ken

[Flanker15]

I think the problem I'm having is that units seem to have a time delay between spotting checks. A tank can drive out in front of you but your units won't see it for a moment which gives it a chance to move out of view or fire on a unit it sees.

For the T-72 example I was expecting a sound contact atleast too but all I got from the unit that was being engaged was a "?" marker. The situation was a T-72 "mid range model" moving aggressively through a forest at night, my squad was an elite Syrian SF squad in top condition and no suppression. The T-72 actually moved halfway past the squad before stopping and destroying several members with its cannon, the squad then spotted it and destroyed it with a RPG-29.

The 4th example was of a BMP-2 moving over a crest on hunt towards a BMP-1. After moving over the crest it had a clear view of the BMP-1's flank at about 100m but somehow the BMP-1 spotted it first and knocked it out. Even though it was moving the gunner, driver and maybe the TC if he was facing forward should have instantly seen the BMP-1 after clearing the crest but they detected nothing until it was too late.

The other thing I was wondering about the spotting is units sharing information, if a unit has com link to another shouldn't it be able to give it info on units it can't see? I had a CO unit that had eyes on a T-55 and the ATGM squad that was part the same company couldn't see it even though they were right next to each other.

[SlowMotion]

I tested this ienemy nfo sharing a bit during some earlier versions. It did happen, but only between some friendly units. Like tanks of same platoon did share info, but friendly infantry just next to those tanks had no clue about the shared enemy info.

[c3k]

It also seems that the staring at an assigned sector behavior is a bit too robotic.

Example: order a squad to face a particular direction. Every man does so with their spotting "pie wedge" (the blue wedge showing facing on the green dot) stays totally focused in the same direction. No one looks around. No one scans. They stare. A bit of gazing around may do wonders for situational awareness.

Just my .02.

Thanks,

Ken

[Other Means]

I'd agree that sometimes spotting seems out of wack but it's so complex that it's hard to pin down the factors that are or are not being either modelled or paid enough attention to - given that even the modelled factors have many parameters that effect them.

I'd say if we start getting the most egregious examples and make a pool of them maybe we could start drawing some conclusions from them otherwise it's all apocryphal, which does no one much good.

[Moon]

I tested this ienemy nfo sharing a bit during some earlier versions. It did happen, but only between some friendly units. Like tanks of same platoon did share info, but friendly infantry just next to those tanks had no clue about the shared enemy info.

From what I recall, units that are not in the same base formation always share spotting info across the standard C&C (or C4 in modern lingo) channels. The interface shows if a unit is in shouting or hand sign distance, or connected via radio or one of those modern sat systems. If you want quick sharing of spotting info, keep your units in control.

[Flanker15]

Yes I've seen it said that's how it's supposed to work but I don't see it happening in the game.

For example the ATGM squad was in full contact with the CO squad it belonged to (they were practically on top of each other) the CO squad had binoculars so it spotted a T-55 quickly but the ATGM didn't spot it ever even though it had LOS to the area where the tank was sitting.

[Moon]

Yes I've seen it said that's how it's supposed to work but I don't see it happening in the game.

For example the ATGM squad was in full contact with the CO squad it belonged to (they were practically on top of each other) the CO squad had binoculars so it spotted a T-55 quickly but the ATGM didn't spot it ever even though it had LOS to the area where the tank was sitting.

The inevitable question is: got a save game?

[Flanker15]

Shockingly enough I do! I usually save over the same spot but I kept this one for whatever reason.

The recon team with the ATGM are on the hill, 2nd squad sees the tank down below and so does CO squad after a moment. The ATGM squad only sees a "?" and I noticed they have binoculars too, all squads have unblocked LOS to the tank's position. There's another squad's CO on the hill to but just ignore them.

Errr but how can I give you the 37 meg file?

[Moon]

Use zip or rar to compress it. If it goes below 10 meg, email it to me, please. martin@battlefront.com

[Flanker15]

Ok I couldn't zip it enough to email so rapid share will have to do.

http://rapidshare.com/files/130842605/The_Hasrabit_Campaign_007.bts.html

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[DaveDash]

The biggest amount of spotting irregularity ive seen is at night with blue on blue friendly fire.

A classic example is mission 04 of the campaign, where your units stationed on Strykers begin shooting your other units as you approach the town.

Ive noticed in particular that units at night, that are not even moving, will go out of command and then you're other units such as snipers will start firing on them. They come back in command in a relatively short time, but it seems very erratic.

As for regular spotting, it seems much improved in V1.08 but there are some irregularities that make you go WTF from time to time still. I think information sharing between adjacent units (even infantry units) is a bit too iffy and slow, and the fact spotting seems entirely based on number of eyes can lead to some interesting effects.

For example. I had one full MG unit of 4 men on a ridge, and then another hurt MG unit of just 1 man right next to them. The unit of 4 men could see enemies down below, but the unit of only 1 man was effectively useless, unable to see, despite the fact his buddies RIGHT NEXT to him could go "contact 11:00 400"

[DaveDash]

Blue vehicles like tanks tend to spot enemy infantry moving around their rear and flanks in battle environments very quickly. They also instantly determine the direction of attack from anti tank weapons, and usually get the full spot on the second shot.

Disagree. I've had tanks shot at by RPGs and anti tank weapons and not respond, unable to find them. Mission 03 (if you win at mission 02) is a classic example.

Ive had my tanks overwatching the entire map, unable to shoot or see hardly anything, even when those ATGMs fire at them.

There are definitely some spotting irregularities on that map. Your HUMVEES with the big optics generally can't see sh*t and your overwatching vehicles cant see much either.

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[Moon]

Ok I couldn't zip it enough to email so rapid share will have to do.

http://rapidshare.com/files/130842605/The_Hasrabit_Campaign_007.bts.html

Heh, it's telling me that I am already downloading a file and have to wait until the download is ready???

[DaveDash]

Another example of how spotting needs to be improved:

2 man Javelin team right next to a squad of friendies. Friendlies can see enemy tank, Javelin team can't see it. Only by marrying the units together so they have more eyes, can the Javelin team see the tank. In reality the nearby unit could just point it out.

Then, for some reason, the static T-55 would cycle in and out of being identified by the squad.

[Flanker15]

That's weird the download is working for me, try again later and see if it's working then.

[__Yossarian0815[jby]]

- facing counts! Units usually spot better to the front than to the side.

Does this also apply to infantry?