Firing rpgs inside of buildings

[mike_the_wino]

In CMX1, letting a 'zook or a 'shrek loose inside was not the thing to do because of back blast. Is this still the case with RPGs? Is there an equally lethal weapon that doesn't fry Syrian troops who are too lazy to go outside? Do destroyed walls mitigate the back blast?

What I am looking for is a way to get some rpg crews into places that will allow them survivability and multiple shots. I was thinking of removing the back wall, or using the broken wall, setting the remaining 3 walls with doors and windows to see if they can fire out. Has anyone tried this?

[JohnO]

Dam good question, I believe the RPG can be fired from inside a building, I believe the AT-3 can also be fired from inside a building, the rest of the ATGMs I don't think so, but I have been proven wrong before. I think the only way to be sure is to run a couple of test with different ATGMs and see what the results are. If you do let us know what happens.

[mike_the_wino]

Tested this during lunch and no AT assets would fire: recoilless or ATGM. Recoilless on roof wouldn't fire. Teams did engage with small arms if shooting from an elevated position (2nd story)

Going to have to test some more tonight.

Buildings at 56m, 112mm and 168m tried so far. Doors facing forwards, one building with the backside eliminated/ destroyed did not act effect AT assets firing.

Pre-patch....of any kind. Straight out of the box.

[Pandur]

well, since 1.05 the javelin can also be fired form inside, or at least i saw it happen 2 or 3 times so far(in "guarding the far flank" scenario, a nice one btw.).

so why not use RPG´s from inside

recoilless on roof wont fire!? thats odd, i hope that gets fixed.

[SgtMuhammed]

Javelins are soft launch so the don't have the backblast of the RPG. Unless you are in a really big room you should not be able to fire an RPG or AT4 from within a building without suffering some effect. You can prepare a building before hand by choosing rooms with open walls or doors or punching holes in the walls but obviously this isn't an option in the middle of a fight.

[Pandur]

Javelins are soft launch so the don't have the backblast of the RPG.

interessting, i didnt knew that!

is soft-launch something like less-lethal!?

wont blast you to pices but knocks you out if you happen to be in its way..!?

or is it "really" safe!?

[SgtMuhammed]

It has a small charge to pop the missile out of the tube a few feet then the rocket ignites. This is opposed to the AT4, for example, whose rocket pushes the round out of the tube and generates the massive backblast. I do believe they are working on new AT4s though with a kind hybrid system that lessens the backblast.

[gman552]

Here's a link to a video of the new AT-4 CS (Confined Space) version:

YouTube - Future Weapons: AT-4 CS

And to a video of a Javelin launch (is this an Australian soldier?):

[Darkmage]

i've def seen rpg 7s been fired from inside building s during the game. should they be able to?

[mike_the_wino]

Traveling for the holidays but I will re-check with 1.05 after the 7th or 8th and let you all know what I see.

Is there reference guide for minimum distance for AT weapons to arm before striking target or all weapons 'live' straight out of the tube? The test range I set up has 3 lanes with buildings at distances ranging from 56m to 348m. Each lane has a single story building, then 56m to a two story, another 56m and a 3 story building. Then third lane has the single story building at the 112m mark, and same distance for each building further back. The third lane has the single story at the 174m mark, same buildings/ distances as the previous two lanes. I hope these distances are providing enough distance for all of the AT assets to operate properly.

I will post screenies when I am back.

Does any one see any problems with the trial parameters? I tried to put a barrier between each lane but the 2 and 3 story buildings allow roof LOS to other lanes so I target the AFV for each AT team.

[flamingknives]

Arming distance in real life tends to be enough to keep the operator safe from the worst of the blast, but there are other factors at work. ATGMs need a certain distance to be aquired by the control systam and bought under control and this can be substantial. Up to 1000m in the case of one system I know of.

The Javelin has to go up before it can come down - there's a lower limit to the top-attack mode, but I don't know what that is. Direct attack ought to work pretty close in as the missile doesn't need to be aquired.

Unguided weapons arm after they leave the tube, but it's pretty close. According to a US TRADOC bulletin the RPG-7 arms at about 5m. Also, RPG-7 is a boost-and-sustain system, so the initial blast is significantly less that most western systems that either burn the entire rocket within the length of the tube (like the Bazooka, the M72 LAW , the LAW80 and the like) or are essentially recoilless rifles (AT4/M136)

The AT4 CS (Confined Space) system is becoming more widely used. It is more of a countermass gun than a conventional RR, having a mass of water that it kicks out of the back (more mass, less velocity, plus the water can vaporise and hence take up energy) rather than high velocity, hot, gas.

The RPG29, on the other hand, is like the rocket systems mentioned earlier. All the propellant is gone before it clears the tube. It's a big projectile - certainly bigger than a LAW80's projectile and firing that from inside a structure was to be avoided if at all possible.

[Secondbrooks]

RPG-7 is "pop-pop" weapon, it gets only about 100 meters per second first then second "motor" gives it almost 300 meters per second speed after short flight distance. So it can be fired inside small spaces. Two meters should be safe distance to wall conserning backblast. There shouldn't be much overpressure inside room, if there are even few windows (or door) open even in smallest rooms (where we flush things to sewer which came out from our backside). I doupt that RPG-29 is much different. It has bigger grenade, yes. But it's rocket based ('pop-pop'), not recoiless rifle after all. But i don't know what Russian army says about it's use in rooms and over all i don't know much sconserning RPG-29.

AT4 (not CS model) might be other case (as it's recoiless rifle after all), but forexample smaller LAW 72's backblast and overpressure inside rooms is quite small. Basic thing is that pressure in room have to get into balance, which means that holes, windows and door should be kept open and wall is enough away for backblast (when conserning LAW i just say lol). When talking about over 100mm recoiless rifles i tend to think that then it's good thing to make sure that wall is enough far away and pressure can get in to balance as freely as possible.

Sidenote:

Even TOW can be launched inside room, which is about 5x7 squaremeters (making hole to wall behind laucher is healthy option), smaller room is OK aslong as there big hole behind launcher, for backblast that is.

[ January 01, 2008, 04:02 AM: Message edited by: Secondbrooks ]

[flamingknives]

AIUI, the RPG-29 is a single stage rocket (i.e. not a "pop-pop") which burns all its propellant before it leaves the tube. Given the mass of the projectile and the effective range the back-blast will be substantial.

The RPG-7 gets about 11m before the sustainer motor kicks in. The use of a sustainer on an unguided rocket is unusual, for while it allows a softer launch, the round tends to 'weathercock' in any kind of cross wind, which makes it very difficult to aim, since it turns into the wind.

[TylerF]

Here in pdf format is a 70's era US Army RPG manual, intelligence document.

I've only glanced at but there may be something useful in there.

Link

[flamingknives]

Yes, that's the document I've been taking my information for the RPG-7 off.

[mike_the_wino]

Thanks to Sixxkiller I am now 1.05 capable so I started dinking around with AT assets in buildings again last night. Preliminary tests show no Syrian units firing any AT asset firing either from inside a building or a roof from 113m out to 390-ish meters. I will extend the map and see if that helps but I am really surprised by these initial test runs. All units were set up in mission editor and then set to hide on first turn with short firing arcs to allow me to selectively activate each Syrian unit for firing.

[dima]

During Grozny defense in 1995 a russians lost quite a lot of armor mainly due to RPG's. A lot of those were fired from upper floors of apartment buildings.

Yes, firing from inside the building isn't as fun as standing in the open, but the firer still has better chance of survival than firing in the open, uncovering his position and having nowhere to hide.

[SgtMuhammed]

You can do it if you are firing from a large room or have time to puch some holes in the opposite wall. It's just when the backblast has no where to go that things get exciting.

[mike_the_wino]

SgtMuhammed have you seen one go off? I have been testing this and only today have I been able to get any AT weapon to fire on armor. I think it was a recoilles rifle but I was on my lunch break and time was short.

Should I bitch again about not being able to directly purchase those items I want, rather than the random grab bag approach one is stuck with by the poor to excellent choices for equipment. :mad: