THE 3 F's

[MEFBRAVO]

Just wanted to see what thoughts were on this tactic and how it relates to CM:SF.

First, I have no military experience just what I have read, so please correct on anything I have said incorrectly.

One of the Tactics the US uses is based on the 3 F's:

1. Find the enemy- recon

2. Fix the enemy in position- supressing

3. Finish the enemy with overwhelming firepower- arty, CAS, more weapons

This appears to have strong merit in the game and I used successfully in mission 1 of campaign. However, with limited resources and it being a game, I am having a harder time applying when it comes to UO.

I am playing airbase which from what I have read is a tough map to begin with. I am wondering how you all use your units to apply tactics of any sort, as well as when and how you have found best to use your infantry.

I have read many posts on how they don't like to use infantry. I am more interested in how you have been successful using them. I am not so concerned about scoring points etc, as much as playing the game as realistic as I can but also keeping it fun.

I cannot figure out when to deploy my infantry without them getting chewed up even when i have been supressing the enemy. Not deploying into a building but for street to street moving or bldg. to bldg. moving I seem to take significant losses. Almost, like I am missing a key ingredient to supressing the enemy.

Overall, I believe the 3Fs make a lot of sense with the game, I just don't know exactly when and how to apply them. Anyone have any advice would be appreciated.

Cheers!

[Chelco]

Great post.

I am having the same problem and I am looking forward to read other people's answers.

For infantry squads in urban combat, I think that is kindof mandatory to split into and move by fire teams. However, this gets too overwhelming rapidly in RT. For moving from building to building, a thing that worked more or less fine for me is to use the "assault" order combined with a target arc covering possible enemy positions. With the assault order, the squad moves forward in groups of 3, leaving enough firepower behind to cover the target arc you have just indicated.

[ChrisND]

I prefer using my infantry. I did most of the Airbase mission dismounted, with about 15 casualties total. The key for that mission especially is to not be afraid to shoot anything and everything with area fire over and over again. Your strykers have plenty of ammo, so cover all potential or actual enemy positions with copious amounts of fire. Wait a few minutes for the suppression to take effect, then move the infantry in, room by room with overwatch at all points. Any isolated strongpoints that you don't want to deal with can be flattened with CAS and mortars.

[MEFBRAVO]

Both great points. I have not done the covering arc while assaulting with my infantry. I am not yet fast enough to handle RT with the infantry yet.

Normal- when you talk about overwatch when moving your infantry is that with your strykers? or with infantry?

I have another question- do the enemy troops on single palyer move around or are they static where they stand and fight till the death? the first mission was mostly trench so it did not seem to apply.

I'm going to dork out here but if you're interested see what you think.

I think an envelopment manuver might work on airbase, but with limited resources, i am afraid you would be to strung out to accomplish it. any thoughts? You could breach on the west side and use the airfield road on the east. fix the gate house and move from the outter edges inward. don't overcommit, but you might be able to accomplish more and isolate and attain key terrain before having to really commit to a frontal assault. however, I don't know if we have enough resources, or if I am good enough to effective with what I have. thanks for the feedback.

[thelmia]

Use Javelins to area fire buildings. Hit the first floor where possible.

A big part of the third 'F' is your infantry's ATGMs.

Go for Syrian total surrender. Kill them all and you don't have to take everything.

[MEFBRAVO]

cool, so you area target the first floor of the building, bring down the whole thing?

also, has anyone finished the campaign?

I like the sotry line

[KNac]

I don't think you have that limited resources in airbase map. 1 stryker company + 3 MGS + 2 helos + plenty of arty. Overwhelming firepower, so if you wish you can try that envelopment maneouver. What worked the best for me is breaching through the barracks, the try to kill the most I could from there, using it as some sort of firebase, and slowly advancing into the airbase HQ. I didn't care at all to take SF HQ at all, just bombed it to death.

But... AI doesn't move unless StratAI says so. They will stand and fight. In this battle in particular they won't move, will try to ambush you. So if what you want to accomplish with the envelopment is to apply pressure on one point so they retreat, don't count on it.

I don't like dismounting cause I don't like how infantry behaves right now, this results in unncessary casualties. Taking cover, advancing, and interaacting with the battlefield, specially in MOUT. But sometimes is better and you don't have other way to do things.

Also I find Uncons too accurate, someone thinks the same? Overall troops should be pinned easier and don't be as accurate. It's like all the troops have iron nerves. Doesn't feel right. And is one of the reaons causalties are very high.

[MEFBRAVO]

KNac, great advice thanks, quick question, in RT can you issue commands in pause? is the pause thing in the way or does it work?

all that makes sense. I you just have to take a it a bit at a time i guess. i think that is why I like WEGO right now,due to all the covering arcs, but I need to get familiar too.

How are you guys using snipers in game?

[thelmia]

Yeah, I do real time. You can pause it any time you want. It's like going from the early XCOM games to the newer real-time-with-pause like UFO Afterlight.

You can't pause in multiplayer, but that's a different game.

For some reason Javelins are much more effective if you hit the first floor. They kill a lot more bad guys, even ones on the third floor.

[Pandur]

I am more interested in how you have been successful using them.

I cannot figure out when to deploy my infantry without them getting chewed up even when i have been supressing the enemy.

the BEST way to "depoly" infantry in the normal scenarios/campain battles i played so far vs. the AI is to not deploy it without a reason. if you dont know what your inf should currently do, dont let them out of their can.

that said, the BEST "use" of squads for me is found in "presenting a trarget".

you start a scenario, unmount "some" groups, not all, and move them up to the enemy a bit.

the enemy AI, since they are as good as never hidden will shoot away on your squad as soon as you come in reach for them.

they dont hit anything on that distances and your vhehicles or squad will spot them in few seconds than, mostly.

than basicly you wait till all vehicles open up und cut down the enemy.

combined with the extreme long battle times in CMSF you have or could have ALL the time you need to shoot in fact nearly every visible opposition out of their position and just than advancing a bit with inf and repeating the same.

that is for advancing into a build up area from open like in "house cleaning", where you shouldnt even move your squads closer at first. dismount in setup and let them there, enemy will open up and show himself just fine.

for battle where you start or battle only in urban areas its different ovcourse.

right now i couldnt fix any real "tactics" for me to aplie to inf(other than the classics, dont push to hard or the normal overwatch movement) in the game becouse just out of 1 reason.

the tacAI.

currently in urban battles it comes down verry much to luck. you can move a stryker in front of a RPG one time for a whole turn, the other time the tacAI(both times unspotted and unharmed)smokes it.

your sqads runing strange ways throught houese, wall bugs wich makes the walls just obsolete now.

thats all stuff wich comes into play where you cant "build" expirience uppon. the point where you consider all the tacAI flaws into your playing(as you have to do it now) "for real" is the point BFC stopped patching.

but not "now", so i can not say anything about what works with inf in urban areas other than the usual "get em unharmed in a house and let em shoot all they see in their neightbourhood" thingy...

oh, and maybe to add, many people seem to like "area fire" with infantry to kill units in cover they cant see, especially in urban areas. i find this pretty "gamey" or so to say, for me personally. but currently it works in fact verry good i tried it too.

my opinnion

[MEFBRAVO]

thanks for al the info. it seems like moving up slowly with inf. in the lead is not a bad ideas??

[xIGuNDoCIx]

I thought it was 4 F's

Find

Fix

Flank

Finish

[theFightingSeabee]

This is how I use infantry.

1. When the stryker or bradley is in danger or just sitting a long time, I dismount. If the vehicle gets taken out, your guys die if they're still inside.

2. Pop smoke if necessary, then dismount and run like hell for cover.

3. Acquire the CLU, missiles and ammo before you dismount.

4. Infantry are good at poking heads over a hill and I've found they die less quickly than a vehicle poking over a hill.

5. Bounding overwatch. Inf does well on rooftops, especially from longer distances, and are very effective using missiles.

6. Once you have some guys up and shooting, then move up some more guys (mounted if possible), pop smoke, dismount, take cover and take position.

7. I always focus first on killing enemy tanks and vehicles and squads with guided missiles, then rpg's, then the rest. Don't be afraid to use your air and artillery assets on anyone who poses a threat to your vehicles. Once your vehicles are safe from them, they can easily take out the rest with .50 cals and mk19's.

You can use your tanks like support, calling them in when fighting a stubborn enemy.

8. I've also found it easier to play in realtime because you can still pause whenever you want and you have a quicker reaction time... you don't have to wait until a whole minute is over.

9. Put you MG's where they can pin enemies down.

10. I haven't had much success using snipers.

[RAYMAN]

How do you recon?? If everytime you get close the enemy in buildings rape you?

[RT North Dakota]

I think folks are getting confused. I do not know about the 3Fs but I do know about Core Functions ;

FIND - locate in time and space

FIX - limit the enemies freedom of action ( to observe, Fire, manouvre and communicate)

STRIKE - Perform that action that breaks the enemies will to resist

EXPLOIT - gain benefit from the enemies withdrawal from combat and realise the aim of the mission.

[tc237]

I think MEFBRAVO's 3F's are at the tactical level.

A Company/Team (3 platoons) would use 1-2 platoons to Find the enemy.

The platoon that made contact would attempt to Fix the enemy using fires (direct/indirect).

The other platoons would attempt to Finish the suppressed enemy by flanking or assault.

[flamingknives]

the 3Fs sound like something I've read in a WW2 US army training document.

Except that was find, fix and flank.

[RT North Dakota]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

the 3Fs sound like something I've read in a WW2 US army training document.

Except that was find, fix and flank.

I'd be very careful of US Army WW2 stuff. A lot was lifted whole from the British Army's Battle Drill concept. Not only did the British screw up the whole concept by teaching it wrongly, but the US made it worse. - incidently, both the UK and US still teach Battle Drills to this day, and still make the same mistake.

[wunwinglow]

QUOTE].... and still make the same mistake. QUOTE]

So what is the correct approach? This might be where I am going wrong all the time.....

Tim

[RT North Dakota]

Originally posted by wunwinglow:

QUOTE].... and still make the same mistake. QUOTE]

So what is the correct approach? This might be where I am going wrong all the time.....

Tim

There isn't really any one approach. In armies tactics are taught as how to do something rather than why something should be done. IT's A HUGE FAILING!.

If you understand why you need to do things to the enemy, then what is the next step, then how.

Always ask WHY am I doing this? The work out what the solution is,- then how to do it.

You read a lot on these boards about guys "assaulting buildings" - without ever questioning the purpose of the assault. - which like almost all armies is a focus on process rather than outcome.

[flamingknives]

It seems that teaching of any skillset is typically how to do something and the understanding of why comes later with proficiency and level of use.

If this is a problem then it's hardly unique to militaries.

[snake_eye]

Well sirs, I agree with most of you. The way consisting in flattening the whole target area and living rubbles with artillery, air assets, Javelins and to parade to the objectives to score, that is not to my feeling the best way to play the game. In any case, in real conflict, we don't have the opportunity to have these powerful assets at the right time, if we get them at all.

The grunts, have to do the bad work mounted or dismounted, anyway. That's when the training and the doctrine of assault come useful.

The goal is to keep casualties at an acceptable level or nil and to go fast in order to keep off balance the enemy and hit him hard.

In R.T Game as in real fight, you have to find out rather quickly, from where the suppression fire might come and how to overcome it. Where is the weakest spot to hit, in the objective area, with a full amount of fire.

For the rest, briefly, is all the same as ever. Overwatch and or bounding overwatch. Two squads in assault, one in suppression fire or the contrary (depending of the situation). Base fire well established, to be able to bring an heavy support fire....

To summarize, you can do it the Montgomery's WWII way (every thing being staged and weighted in lenghtly details), that's rather long, or the Patton's way. Go to it quickly and kill the bastards. More practically : Put all your power at one point, go for it, don't think too much of your flanks and all the military must. (Patton was saying : If all military idiots are doing it, because it is written in books, dont'do it and you are going to catch them offset)

But don't forget the basic of overwacht remains.

[RT North Dakota]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

It seems that teaching of any skillset is typically how to do something and the understanding of why comes later with proficiency and level of use.

If this is a problem then it's hardly unique to militaries.

Maybe so, but all true proffessions - engineers, doctors, and even architects,- all learn why before learning how.

[RT North Dakota]

Originally posted by snake_eye:

That's when the training and the doctrine of assault come useful.

OK, not to disagree but a comment and a question.

1. Training is useless without education, and that education is generally called Doctrine - eg What is taught - and GOOD Doctrine is not HOW things should be done. Good Doctrine is WHY.

2. What to you, or anybody else, is an "assault" - because I never use the word. It's tactically meaningless.

[flamingknives]

I would contend that, at the basic level, "how" more usually precedes "why". "How" will often be put into context but this isn't necessarily "why".