Must say..

[Enven]

The game feels a great deal different; for the better!

Although, it seems that I need to grow comfortable with the gameplay, I am used to static, phases - Offensive Fire, Move, Shoot, Assault, Defensive Fire* TOW is very paced, which is nice, but it feels almost struggling since my reaction is very slow.

Maybe I need to toy with the controls more, but all in all...Its a very nice update, great set of combat situations!

Oh and I can't wait to fiddle with the editor.

Thank you again,

Enven

p.s. Thanks Matt for the help.

[SlapHappy]

You know, I hadn't thought about it before, but it might be easier to play the entire game at half speed since micromanaging the troops is so time consuming.

Technically, you should be able to get about twice as much done when giving orders and such for the same passage of events.

[Sneaksie]

Or just pause the game when you feel that all is out of control)

[Scriba]

I agree with SlapHappy, I play a lot with half speed well not always, only when I launch a offensive that needs a lot of coordination, like Dunkirk for example

[Spartan]

Again like a broken record, the ai in the game should be good enough so that you dont micro manage. If I wanted to do that and base the outcome on speed with a mouse. I would play total war something or other. I still thing if you send troops into abuilt up area they should move to cover positions on their own eg behind a wall.

I dont think the planning behind this game was to have to move every soldier individually. Was it?

[BFCElvis]

Sparan, I usaully do all my movement by squad. I tend to give orders to individuals when it lookslike I can do something fun/cool with them (like attack with grenades).

[CeltiCid]

Originally posted by Sneaksie:

Or just pause the game when you feel that all is out of control)

will be GREAT if we can pause the game also in multiplayer....

[Reichenberg]

Originally posted by Elvis:

Sparan, I usaully do all my movement by squad. I tend to give orders to individuals when it lookslike I can do something fun/cool with them (like attack with grenades).

That is my prefered play style too.... if the AI would not stop me a bit too often from doing so. And I think it hints directly to Spartans criticism (and also to my criticism) about the AI.

I would prefer if the friendly AI will be reworked for the add-on in a way that leaves it to the player to micromanage ones own troops or to not do so.

It can be a bit annoying when ordering whole squads in groups around - only to find out after a few minutes that the soldier carrying the LMG ammunition

- is at the other end of the squad than the LMG

- lies dead 50 metres behind the LMG

- has nobody to hand the ammunition to because the guy with the LMG lies dead 50m behind the soldier with the ammunition

I hope that example shows the possible field of AI improvement for me (just keep ammunition carrier and LMG together and if one dies make somebody else pick up the equipement - and I can imagine that it is not that trivial to always pick the right soldier to jump into position here). It is all about the friendly AI and to avoid to much micromanagement. As yo have pointed out Elvis, it is fun here and there to enjoy some kind of micromanagement (e.g. hand grenade, targeting special targets like officers....), but if you have to do it to keep your squads working even on the most basic level.... it is a bit tiresome.

Nevertheless, I am enjoying the game as it is right now - I just have to adjust my playing style a little bit more than I wished for.

Uwe

[Manx]

I'm playing around with Groups at the moment and find them to be a very powerful way of controlling your forces.

I try to arrange my assets into groups right from the start of a mission depending on what forces are arranged against me and how i want to plan out my attack/defence.

I find this takes a lot of the micro-management out of the game, and allows me to move squads about very easily. You can always fine tune things down at an individual level once contact with the enemy is made.

[ January 30, 2008, 06:31 AM: Message edited by: Manx ]

[KG_AGCent]

Manx; could you please give some examples of how you do this efficiently?

[Sneaksie]

In addon ammo carrier will automatically give ammo to his mate with MG or bazooka. Other aspects of the soldier AI are being improved too, but i can't say more specifically at the moment.

[Reichenberg]

Originally posted by Sneaksie:

In addon ammo carrier will automatically give ammo to his mate with MG or bazooka. Other aspects of the soldier AI are being improved too, but i can't say more specifically at the moment.

Can somebody tell me why I love 1C again??? Any hint from anyone??

Waiting anxiously for more info about the AI improvements in the add on...

Uwe

[Enven]

The individual-micro managing aspect is somewhat tiresome, at most, I grow stressed trying to control every single movement; its very difficult to do so at full speed, thankfully pausing is there.

The positives: The damage charts for vehicles/tanks/people are pretty spot on.

Ballistics *If any...I can't tell from 90+ meters above a battle field* seem to be pretty good, I damage targets, and vice-versa. So it seems that its working out alright...I need to test it more.

Movement: I was stunned at the fluidity of movement from the beginning, stoked to see the terrain actually causes speeds to increase/decrease. Another thing I was blown away with was the pace of movement: Very fun, very fast, and balanced!

-In regard to movement: Terrain, it seems that the terrain changes up the movement, this is a very good thing, especially with a game like this. Although, grid of terrain is somewhat frustrating/ difficult to survey from atop, I wonder if there will be any mods similar to CM' (Grid maps!) that will help survey from atop, that would be awesome.

Firing: Firing is great, its like CM but way faster due to the constant battling. Pisses me off, but its fast...

Actions stop and go so quick that it makes my head spin, to the point where I get frustrated, and realize to myself that micro-managing platoon-sized formations spread across a map shouldn't be so difficult! argh.

Artillery/Heavy weapons/action of fire/area of fire..

These things should be highly effective, but unfortunately the battling is very difficult when things are spread about on the map, its a pain in my ass when you're trying to create a screen of fire, its somewhat troublesome since things start moving in directions you cannot follow (since our AI are complete morons...) adaptation is somewhat difficult.

Thankfully we have the pause control.

Defending and attacking are somewhat difficult with the speed/pace of the game.

I feel like that is the only difficulty for me, and it isn't the game, its me. Just not used to it...Maybe reconfiguring my controls will help, growing more accustomed to managing my forces...and trying different strategies will benefit me in tow.

I was thinking: Managing in squad sizes seems to be effective. Although, if its a defensive action it seems that your infantry are basically sitting ducks in this game, Artillery gets wrecked very quick, and your tanks...usually have issues...I don't know if it is me, or is the AI just god like?

I will get better at this I suppose.

[Manx]

Originally posted by KG_AGCent:

Manx; could you please give some examples of how you do this efficiently?

Not sure whether you want a howto of assigning groups, or just how i would use them? If it's the latter,

i would mainly use groups during move to contact phases and then depending on how and what i've made contact with, adjust individual units according to the situation, i.e, get

into cover, pull back, get LOS/LOF, etc.

I find pressing the keys 1 to 10 much quicker than double clicking on a squad member to select them all. Just selecting any units and pressing CTRL-1-0 will assign those units to Groups 1-10. A quick CTRL-1-0 with no units selected will disband that group.

[Freeboy]

My .02 is that the whole backpack pick up etc is terrible, combersome and annoying, I would like wounded souldier to be immobile, and under fire soldiers to take cover ,and all soldiers to scavenge on there own..

[SlapHappy]

I thought I'd give some very specific ideas for improvement concerning infantry control since many are bugged by this aspect of the game.

1. Soldiers pre-set end of move or motionless stance should be prone. Technically you can do this with the stance button, but it requires setting for every squad. If anything, there should be stance buttons to OVERRIDE the preset, but player shouldn't be required to babysit this if they don't want to. Thus the preset. Soldier survivability is much higher in prone. This is how it is in CMSF and the AI takes care of the individual soldier's stance.

2. Engagement ranges should be scaled back for rifles, SMG's, etc. MG's and sniper rifles are probably good as is. HMG's are probably a little LESS accurate than they should be. At least in the case of the MG-34 and MG-42 in heavy configuration, the weapons employed 4x optical scopes. The game should do a better job in modelling the killing capability of these weapons.

Actually, this can be accomplished by modding, but finding a good balance for the values will be important for overall game balance. I was hoping to get some input from some grog experts on what values might be appropriate. The game values are not arbitrary, so they could be tweaked to give "real world" expected results fairly easily.

3. It would be nice to have about a half dozen "tactical maneuver" scripts which could be launched from the GUI to control individual squads. In this way, the player has input about deciding tactics, but still doesn't have to resort to micro-managing to bring about fairly complex squad maneuvers.

Example: Player specifies an "attack zone" and then launches an attack script from a button on the GUI. Squad members with MG drop in position and provide covering fire on that attack zone. Squad members with SMG and grenades (assault group) try to move rapidly into flanking position and close on target. Additional squad elements (especially rifle units) engage with MG as base of fire, while constantly repositioning to maintain LOS to target area "targets". All of this is done from one GUI command from about 6-7 button options.

[SlapHappy]

Originally posted by SlapHappy:

I thought I'd give some very specific ideas for improvement concerning infantry control since many are bugged by this aspect of the game.

1. Soldiers pre-set end of move or motionless stance should be prone. Technically you can do this with the stance button, but it requires setting for every squad. If anything, there should be stance buttons to OVERRIDE the preset, but player shouldn't be required to babysit this if they don't want to. Thus the preset. Soldier survivability is much higher in prone. This is how it is in CMSF and the AI takes care of the individual soldier's stance.

2. Engagement ranges should be scaled back for rifles, SMG's, etc. MG's and sniper rifles are probably good as is. HMG's are probably a little LESS accurate than they should be. At least in the case of the MG-34 and MG-42 in heavy configuration, the weapons employed 4x optical scopes. The game should do a better job in modelling the killing capability of these weapons.

Actually, this can be accomplished by modding, but finding a good balance for the values will be important for overall game balance. I was hoping to get some input from some grog experts on what values might be appropriate. The game values are not arbitrary, so they could be tweaked to give "real world" expected results fairly easily.

3. It would be nice to have about a half dozen "tactical maneuver" scripts which could be launched from the GUI to control individual squads. In this way, the player has input about deciding tactics, but still doesn't have to resort to micro-managing to bring about fairly complex squad maneuvers.

Example: Player specifies an "attack zone" and then launches an attack script from a button on the GUI. Squad members with MG drop in position and provide covering fire on that attack zone. Squad members with SMG and grenades (assault group) try to move rapidly into flanking position and close on target. Additional squad elements (especially rifle units) engage with MG as base of fire, while constantly repositioning to maintain LOS to target area "targets". All of this is done from one GUI command from about 6-7 button options.

4. Soldier default weapon choices should be re-examined (this may have been done in the uber patch, I haven't had the opportunity to check).

In one test scenario I created, I hid 2-3 faust soldiers in bushes near a crossroads. I then scripted a Russian armored car to move towards the crossroads and the ambushing soldiers. In every play-through the soldiers opted to engage the armored car with their rifle or smg, giving away their position and ultimately getting wiped out. Even in situations where the car had moved into faust range, the soldiers would continue to bang away with their firearm (to no effect) and get slaughtered. I had to MANUALLY switch their weapons to the panzerfaust and then direct fire onto the armored car. Switching to the faust wasn't enough, as they would almost always immediately SWITCH BACK TO THE GUN.

Ridiculous!?

[SlapHappy]

Sorry, I meant to do an "edit"......

[SlapHappy]

One more thing...tanks need a "formation" move speed so that you can coordinate formation moves which include mixes of armor and infantry.

How cool would that be? Small groups of infantry jogging behind armor, using it as cover in the assault?

[Manx]

Originally posted by SlapHappy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SlapHappy:

I thought I'd give some very specific ideas for improvement concerning infantry control since many are bugged by this aspect of the game.

1. Soldiers pre-set end of move or motionless stance should be prone. Technically you can do this with the stance button, but it requires setting for every squad. If anything, there should be stance buttons to OVERRIDE the preset, but player shouldn't be required to babysit this if they don't want to. Thus the preset. Soldier survivability is much higher in prone. This is how it is in CMSF and the AI takes care of the individual soldier's stance.

2. Engagement ranges should be scaled back for rifles, SMG's, etc. MG's and sniper rifles are probably good as is. HMG's are probably a little LESS accurate than they should be. At least in the case of the MG-34 and MG-42 in heavy configuration, the weapons employed 4x optical scopes. The game should do a better job in modelling the killing capability of these weapons.

Actually, this can be accomplished by modding, but finding a good balance for the values will be important for overall game balance. I was hoping to get some input from some grog experts on what values might be appropriate. The game values are not arbitrary, so they could be tweaked to give "real world" expected results fairly easily.

3. It would be nice to have about a half dozen "tactical maneuver" scripts which could be launched from the GUI to control individual squads. In this way, the player has input about deciding tactics, but still doesn't have to resort to micro-managing to bring about fairly complex squad maneuvers.

Example: Player specifies an "attack zone" and then launches an attack script from a button on the GUI. Squad members with MG drop in position and provide covering fire on that attack zone. Squad members with SMG and grenades (assault group) try to move rapidly into flanking position and close on target. Additional squad elements (especially rifle units) engage with MG as base of fire, while constantly repositioning to maintain LOS to target area "targets". All of this is done from one GUI command from about 6-7 button options.

4. Soldier default weapon choices should be re-examined (this may have been done in the uber patch, I haven't had the opportunity to check).

In one test scenario I created, I hid 2-3 faust soldiers in bushes near a crossroads. I then scripted a Russian armored car to move towards the crossroads and the ambushing soldiers. In every play-through the soldiers opted to engage the armored car with their rifle or smg, giving away their position and ultimately getting wiped out. Even in situations where the car had moved into faust range, the soldiers would continue to bang away with their firearm (to no effect) and get slaughtered. I had to MANUALLY switch their weapons to the panzerfaust and then direct fire onto the armored car. Switching to the faust wasn't enough, as they would almost always immediately SWITCH BACK TO THE GUN.

Ridiculous!? </font>

[danjeje]

One more thing...tanks need a "formation" move speed so that you can coordinate formation moves which include mixes of armor and infantry.

How cool would that be? Small groups of infantry jogging behind armor, using it as cover in the assault?

And the tanks need to move in formation and all at the same speed.

Now every tank move at his own speed sometimes interfering whit the movement of the other tanks.

I wrote in other post:

I think this game miss 3 buttons for the tanks (like that of the infantry) for set the caution.

No caution= the tanks could move like now

Caution= the tanks could do only short movement for defense or attack

High caution= the tanks could only rotate

This should help a lot especialy for set the tanks behaviour after the movement.

I think that now the interface is too simple for the manage of a so great number of units.

Some free buttons for further personalization (script/modding) could be very usefull.

[Manx]

Now that we have the QBG, Map and Mission/Campaign Editors, i reckon this game already has enough about it to become a wargaming classic.

I was one of probably many that were unsure of where TOW stood and the direction in which it would go after it's initial release. There was much to like about it, but also much that left you thinking "if only". Then again, can you ever hope to get EVERYTHING you wish for in a game.

Hopefully the majority of our wishlist items will make it into any future patches and the addon, and if not, i firmly believe that 1C & BFC will greatly improve on what we already have.

Bring on the addon, then TOW II !

[Bayes]

I fully agree with the game now having what is needed to become a classic.

Last night I set up a battle using the QBG. Three Tiger I was to defend against 20 attacking Cromwells. On my first try, I did not coordinate the three Tigers and they were taken down one by one. On my second try, I let the Tigers support each other, and was able to completely turn back the attack, with only one lost track, and one damaged gun.

In my opinion, the battle felt even more realistic than similar battles in the old combat mission games.