Semi-official 'work in progress' report

[Sneaksie]

First of all, friends, don't worry about developers suspending support for TOW or being indifferent to your questions and suggestions. All your complaints, wishes and suggestions are noted, in fact all topics of this forum which were active in last two months were examined thoroughly page by page to make sure no good thought will go unnoticed. Some of your suggestions were already planned, but some were not, and it is very important for us to know what community needs most.

The most popular demand was about quick mission generator. There is a number of technical difficulties concerning that and because of current game structure it is hard to implement. In short, every mission in TOW has complex structure and mission generator capable of tasks normally done by designer must be even more complex. Maps are made by hand in 3D editor so generating map from tiles on the fly like in CM is not possible, AI must have general direction of attack set if it is offensive, etc. Thus, mission generator most likely would be some form of wizard in current editor which will automatize most necessary actions, making creation of a simple engagement possible quickly, but probably will still require some hand work like adjusting unit’s placement on the map. For complex missions using full editor capabilities would be still required. There will be new triggers available for mission designers.

Multiplayer stability is being improved now. 8-player engagements were successfully tested, even with clients with low quality internet connection. Connecting over Internet should be more easy and stable. The MP game system in TOW is completely different from singleplayer, so implementing unit selection for battle just like in single missions (obvious decision) is in fact quite complex task demanding rewriting of entire MP system (in single missions unit selection is limited by designer while in MP you may choose any unit in the game, there is many other aspects too). All available units in mission must be stated in mission file, making possibility of choosing any unit in the game for a given battle a tricky task. Because of this, player will probably have a choice of 20+, maybe more, army compositions, for example USA tank platoon ’44 or Russian infantry ’42, etc., which you and your opponent will choose. Loading times of MP missions are sped up considerably (in test 8-player battle all players with different configurations loaded and began to play within 6 minutes, while previously 2-player battle loading could took even 10 minutes). Gamemodes (assault, defence, more complex tasks) are dependant on MP mission designer. These improvements will be in nearest MP patch in September. More fundamental changes in MP structure will be possible only in stand-alone addon.

[Sneaksie]

Visibility system is being tuned, but there is much testing to be done, because it dramatically affects all missions in all campaigns and major changes could make them too easy or unwinnable. Concerning your suggestions, we are increased LOS degradation due to foliage, trees and bushes. These changes will be included in second patch after MP one after thorough testing, while new complex tank visibility system, where every crewmember will have personal observation devices and looking at two separate directions simultaneously will be impossible, is planned for stand-alone addon.

Smoke and smoke weapons are planned in addon.

There was a report by rofl about Daimler being too big. It was checked – yes, it’s roughly 1.3 times bigger Thanks for pointing that out, it is now being corrected (all the animations after model rescaling must be redone).

Replay recording like in IL2 is not possible, it is much more complicated. First of all, IL2 engine, while used in development of TOW, now is so completely reworked that they have little in common. In addition typical IL2 fights consist of no more than 10 or so aircraft, while present TOW battles have up to 255 separately moving and shooting entities (vehicles and soldiers not in vehicles), which have complex damage models and trajectory of their shots are determined by a number of factors, some of them are random. Thus, to record a battle means record every trajectory of each bullet, movement of each soldier at least several times per second, etc. Such record system must be written completely from scratch and it is unlikely it will be planned for near future, because it requires vast amounts of time and resources which are needed in other aspects of the game. It’s a pity because we would like to see replays of our great victories as much as you are

Work on the LOS tool is almost finished and it definitely will be in addon, in current game it will be in a patch after MP one. It works now as you’ve requested, line which indicates visibility by color.

[Sneaksie]

There was a number of complaints concerning “too scripted” missions or facing impossible odds in most of them. They were addressed, and you’ll see whether or not coming campaign of Panzer Lehr division in Normandy is better than previous campaigns. In that campaign enemy outnumbers you historically and have total air superiority, but you’ll have the power of an elite panzer division to deal with that numerical superiority. There is no more somewhat unrealistic reinforcements after you lose certain amount of units, victory conditions checks are tuned to iron out dead-ends. I cannot say how and when it will be available to you because it is Battlefront decision, but it will be ready in September.

Difficulty problems are addressed in tuning other aspects of game system, one of them are difficulty levels. Now on normal difficulty setting enemy accuracy is tuned down, which should made situations where enemy AT kills your best tank by first shot from 500+ m less likely, in other aspects normal difficulty currently is identical to veteran, but there is some testing to be made. Most likely these changes will made it to nearest patch.

Even more sophisticated damage system with various types of armor hardiness (for example, as you know, Russian and German armor molding and rolling technologies were quite different) is being developed. Our new historical consultant wrote a number of books specifically about pre-war and ww2 tanks and artillery pieces, including their production techniques.

Also in addon will be another most demanded feature – house combat. It is work in progress now, but I can give you some details. Unlike in CC, CM and similar games, infantry won’t run into building right through the walls – soldiers must use doors. Inside there will be a number of positions soldiers will occupy, some near windows. Soldiers which are not directly near window can fire too if they see the enemy through any of the openings. It cannot be said now how house-to-house will be similar to other your favorites CC and CM, but please keep in mind that in these games most aspects of such combat are abstract, such as passing and shooting through walls, while in TOW all is physically modeled and thus much more complex (and requires tons more processor power than old humble CC). In CC you didn’t care how many windows faced in needed direction that house had, you just sent squad there, while in TOW you must take into account such minor and previously overlooked features in every aspect of the game to be efficient and successful. As soon as we’ll have working indoor combat I’ll show you screenshots and short videos.

[bruce90]

Thanks for the information.It's much appreciated.

[Slapaho]

wow! - thanks for the update - much appreciated

[FinnN]

All sounds great - am really looking forward to the new campaign, I hope that more emphasis is placed on intelligent use of the terrain and so on rather than just raw numbers. Smoke is something I'm really looking forward to - and with buildings in I'd love to see flamethrowers and demolition charges too. Even if it's only good for basic missions I think an easy entry mission builder will be a big bonus too.

Anyways, thanks for the (huge!) update - erm, much appreciated!!! (seeing as that seems to be the thing to say today!)

Have fun

Finn

[Glennovich]

Great news! Keep up the good work!!!

[Potential Italian Player]

Great News !

Thankx for all your work...

[Tartari]

Thanks! sounds promising!

[ August 30, 2007, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: Tartari ]

[stuka42]

Thx to the 1c team for the hard work. I'm very please with the possibility of infantry entering buiding in a future add-on.

Keep up the good work!

[Stimo]

I posted a french translation of Sneaksie's post on my site : club-FFL

I knew I would make the right choice with ToW.

Practicing the game and reading informations about further developments let me think that this game will become the greatest WW2 tactical simulator.

As I now see, we are read by developpers, so I'd like to tell them about what I think :

- when you order a "don't move" order to a self-propelled gun, it should be allowed to turn and change it's orientation to face the ennemy automatically.

- when a unit is ordered to rotate to a certain direction, it shouldn't change on it's own unless a real threat : if often saw StuG or SU I ordered to watch a place where enemy tanks were about to come, turn to face enemy infantry coming from another direction.

- (maybe CM-player defect) : combat formations, such as 'line', 'wedge'... are far too expanded : we all know how important is firepower concentration... I want to be able to form very compact tank lines.

- what about modifying trenches so they include gun positions ?

[pad152]

Some Additional Items

Stop soliders from getting up to kneel when reloading weapons, this just kills snipers.

Weapons should be loaded when the solider are prone.

A random chance of repair of vehicle damage, to simulate minor repairs.

Weapons Carrier/Supply truck, I would really like to be able to resupply my troops on the field.

Glad to see this game getting the support it deserves!!

Thanks

[Charlie901]

Excellent, especially houses occupied by Infantry and Smoke...this will finally give this game some serious teeth to compete with anything currently out there!!!

I'll have to blow the Dust of my Disk now!

[ August 30, 2007, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: Charlie901 ]

[CharlieMike24]

Great news and the Forum seems to have come alive again

[CAS]

Nice too see you improve the engine!

My wishes are:

1) A retreat function (where you can go to the next mission while keeping your surviving units)

2) I hate units popping up out of nowhere into the play area. The TOW engine has the advantage that it can spawn units off map and have them rolling in the play area. I whish the scenario designers would have used this consequently.

[RustedGun]

This is great news...an automated wizard that assists in mission generation is certainly a good step forward

[666]

Cannot wait for patch and for addon... I only miss some kind of "autovictory" after achieving most of objectives and destroying most of opponent army and PzIII with 50mm(kz) - i.e. PzIII G, H or early J.

[Sneaksie]

Stimo

Two your requests are somewhat confilcting with each other, you want SPG to not turn and to turn. In second case you should order it to hold position so it will cover that sector and don't worry about infantry, and in first just leave it as is so it will be able to turn freely. It will go forward only if it sees enemy and can't target it after one minute.

Request about more tight vehicle formations was passed to lead designer, we'll think about it.

Gun entrenchment positions are planned, but they will be in addon probably.

Thank you very much for French translation!

pad152

Thanks for pointing that out, it is a bug introduced after correcting soldier's behavior in trenches. It is fixed now and fix will be included in nearest patch.

Repair and ammo carriers is against game concept, but we'll think about your suggestions.

Flypatcher

I've added Retreat function request into our internal wiki wishlist along with most other suggestions.

In new campaign i didn't see units respawn in close proximity, they are arriving from map borders, so you'll probably be content. It was not used much before because of player would be bored waiting for them to arrive. Maps are large and infantry moves slowly.

[rofl]

Originally posted by Sneaksie:

In new campaign i didn't see units respawn in close proximity, they are arriving from map borders, so you'll probably be content. It was not used much before because of player would be bored waiting for them to arrive. Maps are large and infantry moves slowly.

IMO the maximum playable area is much to small, we have tanks with 1000-1500 meters effective firerange but maps are small like in arcadegames .

[Sneaksie]

It depends on mission design, some missions are made more small and some large. Current maximum area is 2048x2048m.

[Stimo]

Originally posted by Sneaksie:

[QB] Stimo

Two your requests are somewhat confilcting with each other, you want SPG to not turn and to turn. In second case you should order it to hold position so it will cover that sector and don't worry about infantry, and in first just leave it as is so it will be able to turn freely. It will go forward only if it sees enemy and can't target it after one minute.

Request about more tight vehicle formations was passed to lead designer, we'll think about it.

Gun entrenchment positions are planned, but they will be in addon probably.

Thank you very much for French translation!

Thank you for your answer Sneaksie.

I knew there would be a problem with my first two suggestions : it's caused by my english rather than my logic.

I'll try to be more explicit :

When planning an ambush with antitank vehicles, you want them to spot a certain place, don't move and be ready to instantely deliver the first shot if armor is sighted.

If you don't issue a "don't move" order to a vehicle, it will advance on it's own, sooner or later.

This can ruin an ambush.

If you order "Don't move", vehicles will stay where you want them to be, but SPG won't either be able to rotate in case ennemy ARMOR comes from slightly different direction.

That's why tanks & SPG should have different behaviors depending on ennemy they locate :

- Tanks & SPG should be able to rotate to face ennemy armor for better protection.

- They shouldn't change the orientation they're ordered to watch, to fire on low-level threats.

It will go forward only if it sees enemy and can't target it after one minute.

This I didn't knew... I thought they decided to go hunting on their own when bored to wait...

[Sneaksie]

SPGs and tanks actually have different behaviors. Tanks are more dynamic fighters, they can switch ttargets quickly. SPG always attack from maximum distance, it moves slowly even when ordered to assault. Of course SPGs are very different, for example Jagdpanzer and Wespe, but each unit in the game has unique 'threat presets', determined by special table. In that table each distance have a threat rating, one for armored targets and one for infantry. In short and very short distances infantry is more dangerous than tanks, especially for light armored or even open-topped SPGs, thus if infantry comes closer and closer at some point SPG will be forced to turn even if it sees tanks, infantry at 50m will be considered as higher threat than tank at 300m (for example). If infantry is far away and SPG sees tank it will engage tank, even if it's primarily anti-personnel and has low AP or HEAT rounds (SU-122s have only 4).

Thus tanks can decide to rotate to face one enemy (another tank), while engaging other from opposite direction (close infantry). SPGs can't turn a turret to engage pesky infantry which came close, so it turns to engage with usually only weapon it has. In such grim situation you can order one of the crew to bail out, while setting SPG to 'don't move', for example in Ferdinand one crewman has MG specially for such unlucky cases, first select him and then order bail out.

Armor shouldn't wander off if bored to wait, it may go forward if it saw enemy but couldn't target him for some time; then after enemy is destroyed and no new targets are visible it should back up to original place. If you are sure that armor wandered off without seeing anything, tell us when it happened, we'll see into it.

[FinnN]

If tanks don't wander off, infantry certainly do (especially ones with higher ratings). I can see why they might want to adjust position slightly if they're just outside range or something, but as it is some of them will roam off on their own. At the least I think they should have a much higher tendency to stick together as a group unless ordered otherwise. For me this is by far the biggest micromanagement issue in the game.

One bug I do definitely see with tanks though is when the main gun gets knocked out the tank will race towards the enemy to engage with machine guns - even if the enemy is a tank. At first I thought I might be issuing orders after the gun is knocked out in the thick of things, but as far as I can tell they do it by themselves. I've even had a couple of instances where both my tank and the AI tank are basically bumping into each other piling in MG fire until knocked out by another unit. Quite funny to see, but annoying.

It'd be nice to see trenches etc potentially hidden at the start of the game, then permanently visible once spotted with the option for the scenario designer to make them visible initially.

Also for scenario designers I'd like to see a script call that throws up a dialog box for asking a question with multiple answers and returning the result to the mission script. I think that would be perfect for scripting in things like draws and so on. Also to do with scripting,a function to write out arbitrary values to the end save game file would be great for anyone interested in making some sort of external campaign engine. I think both of these wouldn't be too hard to implement.

Finally, will we be seeing things like rifle grenades and on-map (light) mortars?

Have fun

Finn

[Gnasher]

Originally posted by FinnN:

One bug I do definitely see with tanks though is when the main gun gets knocked out the tank will race towards the enemy to engage with machine guns - even if the enemy is a tank. At first I thought I might be issuing orders after the gun is knocked out in the thick of things, but as far as I can tell they do it by themselves. I've even had a couple of instances where both my tank and the AI tank are basically bumping into each other piling in MG fire until knocked out by another unit. Quite funny to see, but annoying.

It'd be nice to see trenches etc potentially hidden at the start of the game, then permanently visible once spotted with the option for the scenario designer to make them visible initially.

I can confirm that bug, I saw it only last night, tank took a hit to the gun & then raced in to engage with the bow gun until wasted by an enemy tank. This only seems to happen when the gun is hit & no crew are hit/killed.

[Stimo]

Sneaksie, thanks again !

It's now clear that I didn't understood everything I saw in game.

I allways refused to let my tanks go forward to engage an ennemy it saw but couldn't fire at.

I'll sure try this, and specially observe if it comes back to previous position.

About SPG turning to face enemy, my remarks came from 2 observations.

First :

Please imagine a hill.

On southern side, my PzIV/70 oriented to east. No enemy in this direction, but I wanted to set an ambush this way.

On northern side of the hill, about 250 m from my tank, ennemy armored cars, light tanks and infantry. Note that my panzer couldn't see them.

With "don't move" assigned to my panzer, it stood looking at east, but simply refused to fire when another ennemy tank group came in my ambush zone, because none were exactly in front of him.

With it's freedom to move, my panzer left his place to engage the first ennemy group, and was instantely destroyed by flanking tank group.

Second situation :

Multiplayer game. A hill again.

I'm west with british armor. I have an archer*

Ennemy with german armor coming from east.

I gather my tanks in compact line to face ennemy.

My policy is to wait him to come, but archer goes to him.

I stop the archer and issue a "don't move" order.

When ennemy finally comes, the first that can be shooted is at 10 o'clock from the archer, but it doesn't turn... and would surely have died if my other tanks hadn't broke ennemy's gun.

Do you understang why I talked about SPG to be able to rotate when ordered not to move ?

BTW : why is the archer so slow in game ?

It's speed is set at 5 km/h, but I saw that it's cross-country speed was almost 12km/h (8mph).

sources :

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/unitedkingdom/tanks-destroyer/archer.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer