60t Mobile Phone

[birdstrike]

From the CMSF manual p 163 about the M1A1HC SA:

"This is a M1A1HC with various “Situational Awareness” equipment upgrades added on.

These enhancements include [...] externally mounted tank-infantry phone[...]."

I was just wondering to what degree this is modeled in the game. Do we get a quicker information relay between tank and infantry nearby than with the standard HC variant?

[Secondbrooks]

It would be logical to not have. I think that if two squads from different platoons are next to each of other they do not communicate (=give targets) to each of other, if their platoon or company leaders are unavailable. Atleast to it seems that information moves thru chain of command, but i haven't much studied the matter. Just impressions what i've got.

[YankeeDog]

I don't really know, but my SWAG is that it's not at this point.

I base this on the fact that modeling of Infantry-to-Vehicle communications in general seems to be missing from the game right now.

For example, playing in Elite, I've repeatedly noticed that the "Airguard" infantry in a Stryker will often spot an enemy and take said enemy under fire, long before the Stryker itself spots the same enemy. This holds true even if the vehicle is stationary and more or less facing the direction of the contact. I've seen this situation go on for more than two minutes, where the Airguard infantry is acutally actively firing on an enemy, but the Stryker itself remains unaware of the same contact.

I would think that one of the first priorities of the Airguard upon spotting any enemy would be to duck back down into the hull for a second and yell up to the VC manning the RWS where the enemy was. But this doesn't seem to happen in the game ATM. . . or maybe the Stryker crew just forgot to take the lens cap off the RWS sighting system.

Cheers,

YD

[gibsonm]

Or maybe the Crew Commander and Air Sentries have different arcs of responsibility and the Crew Commander is doing his job by remaining focused on his, while the Air Sentries deal with their threat?

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by gibsonm:

Or maybe the Crew Commander and Air Sentries have different arcs of responsibility and the Crew Commander is doing his job by remaining focused on his, while the Air Sentries deal with their threat?

In the cases I have seen, it usually happens with a medium distance (200-400m) infantry contact to the front quarter. The RWS is not firing at all; it is not occupied with another contact. The Strkyer is also stationary.

Further, note that the Stryker does not spot the contact *at all*, even though it has LOS (I checked with the target command to be sure). IOW, it is not seeing the contact and choosing not to take it under fire for whatever reason; it's simply not spotting the contact at all.

So this explanation would seem unlikely.

Cheers,

YD

[MikeyD]

Oh, I'm trying to remember - I think Steve said the radio net wasn't modeled per se. I guess that would include tank-to-infantry comms. For the most part radio traffic is represented by the player's all-knowing 'eye of God' perch above the battlefield. My infantry sees enemy in a building so i direct my buttoned Stryker to area fire that building. The working assumption is the infantry routed a message to that Stryker somehow.

You can see the effects of radio comms more in its absense. Red side does not like random soldiers calling up for artillery. Only one guy's got the radio tuned to that frequency and the necessary training to call in a strike.

[YankeeDog]

Ya, I get that. However, Direct Fire is considerably more effective than Area Fire. So ideally, you want that Stryker to bring the RWS to bear on the enemy directly. It's also a micromanagement issue. It gets a bit tedious babysitting all my overwatch units to make sure they actually start firing on a spotted enemy.

I can completely understand *some* delay between when the Airguard spots a contact, and when the Stryker they're riding in spots the same contact. But I would think that, given a general clue of where to look for the enemy via verbal direction from the Airguard (not to mention outgoing tracers), that the VC manning the RWS would spot the enemy in fairly short order, so long as he wasn't otherwise occupied.

Just something I hope can be improved a bit down the line. . .

Cheers,

YD

[Combatintman]

The tank phone is designed primarily for the urban environment. It allows the infantry who generally have better situational awareness in that environment to speak to the tank commander without having to climb on the vehicle and expose themselves if the crew are battened down. Usually used therefore for the infantry to pass on threats or give target indications to the tank crew who may not necessarily have the same view as the infantry. It would therefore be logical for passage of information between the two to be better in the urban environment than when there is a tank without the phone fitted.

[birdstrike]

So as I understand it, units by themselves are totally unaware of other friendly units in their vicinity - the comm-network is the only defining link between units with the player filling in the "information gaps".

For the tank phone to work as it should, there first had to be be introduced some check for adjacent infantry for the engine(?)

(I remember that scene from "Full Metal Jacket" where one of the Marines uses the phone on the back of an M48)

And the current comm system works more like this:(?)

A squad riding in a Stryker would first pass its information to the PL commander who then relays it to the Stryker?

For a squad passing information to a tank in the same battallion, the information must first go through the chain of command from the infantry squad to PLCO up to COCO and BTCO then back down to the tank COCO, tank PLCO and the tank - with faster relay for units with FBCB2 access (from the infantry PLCO to FBCB2 network then directly to the tank?)

[Combatintman]

Originally posted by birdstrike:

So as I understand it, units by themselves are totally unaware of other friendly units in their vicinity - the comm-network is the only defining link between units with the player filling in the "information gaps".

For the tank phone to work as it should, there first had to be be introduced some check for adjacent infantry for the engine(?)

(I remember that scene from "Full Metal Jacket" where one of the Marines uses the phone on the back of an M48)

And the current comm system works more like this:(?)

A squad riding in a Stryker would first pass its information to the PL commander who then relays it to the Stryker?

For a squad passing information to a tank in the same battallion, the information must first go through the chain of command from the infantry squad to PLCO up to COCO and BTCO then back down to the tank COCO, tank PLCO and the tank - with faster relay for units with FBCB2 access (from the infantry PLCO to FBCB2 network then directly to the tank?)

I can't speak for the game model or for how the US forces operate but in the British Army this is roughly how it works:

To take the Stryker Squad example - in the British Army everyone should have a PRR (Personal Role Radio) which allows everyone in the Section to talk to each other. Given that the crew of the vehicle and the section in the back are one and the same it would mean that anybody who sees a threat can call it over the PRR which would mean that the vehicle crew would receive the information.

Moving higher up - each organisation has its own radio net so a Brigade radio net will have its Battlegroups (TFs in US-speak) as callsigns on that net. Each Battlegroup has its own net with its Squadrons and Companies as callsigns on that net. Each Company/Squadron Group (Team in US-speak) has its Platoons/Troops as callsigns on that net.

So let us say that 1 Section/1 Platoon/A Company/1 LOAMSHIRES which is part of 1 Armoured Brigade gets involved in a contact. That report would be called in on PRR to the section commander. The section commander then gets on the A Company Net and sends the contact report. The Company commander would then switch to the 1 LOAMSHIRES Battlegroup Net and send the report up to Battlegroup who in turn would switch to the 1 Brigade Net and pass it on to Brigade HQ.

[Combatintman]

Originally posted by birdstrike:

So as I understand it, units by themselves are totally unaware of other friendly units in their vicinity - the comm-network is the only defining link between units with the player filling in the "information gaps".

For the tank phone to work as it should, there first had to be be introduced some check for adjacent infantry for the engine(?)

(I remember that scene from "Full Metal Jacket" where one of the Marines uses the phone on the back of an M48)

And the current comm system works more like this:(?)

A squad riding in a Stryker would first pass its information to the PL commander who then relays it to the Stryker?

For a squad passing information to a tank in the same battallion, the information must first go through the chain of command from the infantry squad to PLCO up to COCO and BTCO then back down to the tank COCO, tank PLCO and the tank - with faster relay for units with FBCB2 access (from the infantry PLCO to FBCB2 network then directly to the tank?)

I can't speak for the game model or for how the US forces operate but in the British Army this is roughly how it works:

To take the Stryker Squad example - in the British Army everyone should have a PRR (Personal Role Radio) which allows everyone in the Section to talk to each other. Given that the crew of the vehicle and the section in the back are one and the same it would mean that anybody who sees a threat can call it over the PRR which would mean that the vehicle crew would receive the information.

Moving higher up - each organisation has its own radio net so a Brigade radio net will have its Battlegroups (TFs in US-speak) as callsigns on that net. Each Battlegroup has its own net with its Squadrons and Companies as callsigns on that net. Each Company/Squadron Group (Team in US-speak) has its Platoons/Troops/Sections as callsigns on that net.

So let us say that 1 Section/1 Platoon/A Company/1 LOAMSHIRES which is part of 1 Armoured Brigade gets involved in a contact. That report would be called in on PRR to the section commander. The section commander calls it in on the A Company Net to the 1 Platoon Commander who then gets on the A Company Net and sends the contact report. The Company commander would then switch to the 1 LOAMSHIRES Battlegroup Net and send the report up to Battlegroup who in turn would switch to the 1 Brigade Net and pass it on to Brigade HQ.

In terms of lateral communications - if the tank for instance is part of the same Company or Squadron group then as the infantry then they will both be on the same radio net and can communicate directly to each other without having to pass messages up and down the chain of command.

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by Combatintman:

The tank phone is designed primarily for the urban environment. It allows the infantry who generally have better situational awareness in that environment to speak to the tank commander without having to climb on the vehicle and expose themselves if the crew are battened down. Usually used therefore for the infantry to pass on threats or give target indications to the tank crew who may not necessarily have the same view as the infantry. It would therefore be logical for passage of information between the two to be better in the urban environment than when there is a tank without the phone fitted.

The tank phone is designed primarily for the urban environment

????????????

The tank phone is designed for close communication between the tank and the supported Infantry without recourse to the radio net.

Certainly it can be applied to the urban environment but I've had Infantry use it to talk to me on numerous times in the non urban environment too.

Usually during an assault where the tanks are providing "intimate support" to the Infantry.

The Infantry Section Commander becomes part of the vehicle crew for comms purposes and can talk to the vehicle commander just like the driver, etc. can.

Certainly they provide enhanced situational awareness for the crew and make it easier for the Infantry to tailor the support they receive from the Tanks, but its by no means limited to urban use.

There are also numerous "OH&S" issues associated with this, like the commander reminding the grunt that the vehicle is about to move (no reverse horn fitted remember so no "beep, beep, beep") but they should be aware anyway as they can hear the commander give the driver his brief.

The additional fun part for this when attached to an M1 is to avoid the turbine exhaust at the back which is a "tad" warm.

[ April 10, 2008, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: gibsonm ]

[Combatintman]

Gibsonm - yep - having reread my post I shouldn't have said 'primarily for the urban environment'.

[John Kettler]

gibsonm,

Regarding said warmth, my now retired brother used to tell with relish what happened to a certain Benz that tailgated an Abrams in a tactic that was once feasible with M60s. Seems the paint blistered on the hood!

Regards,

John Kettler