Tiring

[C'Rogers]

Michale Emrys

The human body is at times inherently illogical. The thing about tension is that the body if nervous wants to put everything out right away (in danger, run as fast as possible). Stress also takes your mind off what you are doing, so instead of controlling your pace you let it get out of control going faster than you should.

It is one of the reasons long distance runners receive a lot of training on remaining calm.

But if true it occured to me that superior training ought to mean a US regular preform better then a regular of some other nation that does not train their troops as well.

Being they are doing an engine for multiple games I imagine it would be easier to do a standardized experience system ('regular' units whether America, Syrian, or German WWII all are pretty much the same). To simulate the US having a greater advantage in soldiers do to training just have US soldiers at a higher experience level.

I also think it would make it easier on players when switching between sides/games that when they get a regular unit they know its capabilities.

Sidenote: Is BFC going to use roughly the same experience as before (Conscript - Elite) or something different to describe the soldiers?

Regarding relative mobility, the Syrian home field advantage is huge in my opinion, especially in an urban environment. The Syrian's should be able to use pre-established "rat-lines" and be able to navigate streets and alleys more quickly than their US counterparts.

A good point. The only question being how many of the Syrian defends will be regular's to that city? Or will the standard army come from around the country. While they would still have the edge due to some of the things you mentioned it wouldn't really be a home field advantage. More like both are visitors, the fans are just heavily on the Syrian side.

[Cpl Steiner]

I seem to remember that experience will be more complex in CMx2. IIRC, training and motivation will now be separated. In theory this could mean some troops who can shoot very accurately but are not very aggressive as well as some who can't hit a barn door at 50 paces but are really up for a fight.

[Battlefront.com]

Remember guys that Fitness was broken out as its own factor when we released CMBB. Meaning, you can have Regular and Unfit, Regular and Fit, etc.

Hopefully I'll be making a post about the new UI very soon. Few little rough edges to smooth out in the game and then it should be good to go.

Steev

[Captain Wacky]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

I think, if anything, the fatigue modeling in CMx1 was a tad bit generous. As others have said, if a unit becomes Exhausted it should be pretty much akin to Broken or Routed. Meaning, the chances are that you won't get use of the unit back (at least not offensively) within the confines of the scenario being played. Gamers often wonder why a battle for a town only took them 20 minutes when in real life it took 4 attacks over a day and a half. Well... it probably wasn't because the attackers were sitting around totally rested and with plenty of ammo on top of it!

Steve

I disagree, I think that support units like machine guns and mortars became tired too quickly (after just a few seconds of running sometimes), and that all infantry became exhausted too quickly.

[Battlefront.com]

I disagree, I think that support units like machine guns and mortars became tired too quickly (after just a few seconds of running sometimes), and that all infantry became exhausted too quickly.

Yeah, but you're named Captain Wacky. That means you're like, well, you know, Wacky and stuff

In real life a fit and heavily loaded unit can do a lot of modest bursts of speed with quick recovery inbetween. But the laws of Human endurance shows that the longer you push without a break, the more time that is needed on the recovery end. And at some point the recovery period necessary goes off the charts (from the game's perspective). We didn't even simulate the latter. Think about it this way...

A unit might be able to do something like the following within an hour without seriously degrading their condition:

20 half minute sprints *or*

10 one minute sprints *or*

3 two minute sprints *or*

1 five minute sprint *or*

A lighter unit would have more "in them", a less well conditioned unit less.

Although I've just made these numbers up off the top of my head, the point is that at most the unit has about 10 minutes of running in it. The more the running is spaced out, the more likely it can get the full 10 minutes. The less spaced out, the lower the overall yield.

This is a very crude analogy, obviously, since cumulative daily energy expenditure, how long its been since food/water was consumed, how much rest they had since the day before, how long they have been in combat, what kind of stress they are experiencing at the time, etc. all play into things. All we can do is make a crude model that presumes that at least some of these negative factors are at work.

There is a big difference between what 6 men can do with a MG and ammo under prolonged combat conditions and what they can do in peacetime. Being well trained and fit can only make up for the problems of combat for so long. IIRC in WWII a unit was pretty much considered spent after about 4-6 weeks of combat. Meaning, that the veteran troops at the end of 6 weeks were closer to being as combat effective as green troops that were fresh into the battle.

Steve

[stoat]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I disagree, I think that support units like machine guns and mortars became tired too quickly (after just a few seconds of running sometimes), and that all infantry became exhausted too quickly.

Yeah, but you're named Captain Wacky. That means you're like, well, you know, Wacky and stuff

In real life a fit and heavily loaded unit can do a lot of modest bursts of speed with quick recovery inbetween. But the laws of Human endurance shows that the longer you push without a break, the more time that is needed on the recovery end. And at some point the recovery period necessary goes off the charts (from the game's perspective). We didn't even simulate the latter. Think about it this way...

A unit might be able to do something like the following within an hour without seriously degrading their condition:

20 half minute sprints *or*

10 one minute sprints *or*

3 two minute sprints *or*

1 five minute sprint *or*

A lighter unit would have more "in them", a less well conditioned unit less.

Although I've just made these numbers up off the top of my head, the point is that at most the unit has about 10 minutes of running in it. The more the running is spaced out, the more likely it can get the full 10 minutes. The less spaced out, the lower the overall yield.

This is a very crude analogy, obviously, since cumulative daily energy expenditure, how long its been since food/water was consumed, how much rest they had since the day before, how long they have been in combat, what kind of stress they are experiencing at the time, etc. all play into things. All we can do is make a crude model that presumes that at least some of these negative factors are at work.

There is a big difference between what 6 men can do with a MG and ammo under prolonged combat conditions and what they can do in peacetime. Being well trained and fit can only make up for the problems of combat for so long. IIRC in WWII a unit was pretty much considered spent after about 4-6 weeks of combat. Meaning, that the veteran troops at the end of 6 weeks were closer to being as combat effective as green troops that were fresh into the battle.

Steve </font>

[Battlefront.com]

Stoat,

Could you put that into terms we're more used to? Maybe something with cars?

I could use cars, but I think beer is better

A guy might be able to do something like the following within an hour without seriously degrading his ability to speak without sluring and making a fool of himself in front of women:

20 2oz sips *or*

10 2oz sips *or*

3 8oz chugs *or*

1 24 oz chug

This is assuming a guy of average weight and drinking condition consuming 5% alcohol by volume. For guys drinking 9% Belgian beers, they will make a fool of themselves sooner, for guys drinking 2.5% light beer... well... they are already making a fool of themselves just by drinking the pisswater

Steve

[Imperial Grunt]

Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

[Battlefront.com]

Interesting stuff. Another example to throw in is 1st Battalion, 2nd Marines. They are the ones that took a pounding at An Nasiriyah. They had inexperience and screwups to account for, but they were in a really bad spot and, I feel, came out better than most would have. They just so happened to stumble upon some really crappy luck. Lady Luck sometimes is in a bad mood.

My point is to remind people that good leadership is important. You can have the best trained virtual units under your command, but if you screw a few things up at the wrong time with the wrong roll of the lucky dice, then you're going to pay heavily for it. Anybody that's played CMx1 games knows this quite well

Steve

[hellfish]

Good write up, IG. Thanks - that does make a bit more sense. It's kind of different in the Army, though, as we never really had battalion sized deployments like that would result in such different levels of training and readiness in a single regiment/brigade.

[Battlefront.com]

Good write up, IG. Thanks - that does make a bit more sense. It's kind of different in the Army, though, as we never really had battalion sized deployments like that would result in such different levels of training and readiness in a single regiment/brigade.

Yup, they are all equally adept at eating Asian food, painting rocks, or guzzling German beer, depending on where deployed. Or something like that

As an aside, I wear a ball cap that says "Polizei" on it (gift from Polizei friends of mine) around on a daily basis. I can't tell you how many times I've been stopped by current or ex service personnel who have questions for me or (better still) a story to tell. Quite an unexpected conversation piece!

Steve

[hellfish]

I remember this one time in Nuremberg when I got stopped in the red light district...

[J Ruddy]

Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Imperial Grunt:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by fytinghellfish:

I'd think that by and large you'd be able to get away with making most, if not all, US units veteran or even crack. Nearly the entire Army, including the Guard, has been through Iraq at least once now and nearly all of them probably saw some kind of combat. Hell, even just being in a combat zone if you don't even engage in a firefight is excellent training.

I disagree. I have seen some units that did not have an offensive mindset and had a victim's mentality from CO down to brand new private. The link to the trailer illustrates this to a degree.</font>