Will vehicles be able to reverse for self preservation behaviour?

[Darkmath]

Could we know if this issue will be adressed in the 1.05 patch, along with the other already mentionned?

[Childress]

Well, you can do it manually. This won't help you if you favour WEGO, however.

[thewood]

This question has been asked quite a few times and have seen no response. Any chance of whether BFC even considers this an issue?

[Zemke]

Frankly if I wanted RT games I would be playing RT games, like Command and Conquer, Theater of War, Close Combat, (although once upon a time I did put in many hours into Close Combat games...prior to CM1 coming out). Due to the current state of WEGO in CMSF I am thinking about buying Matrix's " PANZER COMMAND: OPERATION WINTER STORM", just to see how they did it.

[ October 14, 2007, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: Zemke ]

[M1A1TC]

I hate RT mode.... Thats why I been playing CM games since the very beginning.

The AI needs to change so its similar to CMBB, or add a shoot-scoot order.

In real life a tank in defensive position, turret down, will pull up, fire 1-2 shots, back back down. So its exposed only for about 6-8 seconds.

In CMSF, the tank finds a target, and then just sits there, even if it gets hit. No self preservation at all. Very unrealistic.

This especially important if you arent playing RT mode, where you can ajust on the fly if you are baby-sitting each tank

[Huntarr]

You can perform shoot & scoot now. Perform a movement order of your choice then pause 15sec and reverse. You can also add the target to the actual waypoint of the shoot that you could not do in CMx1. I will work you up a AAR if you need one.

[thewood]

Still doesn't answer the question about reversing automatically.

[Huntarr]

You can make the plan much more elaborate if you wish, even adding pop smoke. If you add more waypoints you can do any number of things.

"Deathblossom" my favorite.

[Huntarr]

Still doesn't answer the question about reversing automatically.

I didn't say it did. I was showing M1 that you can perform shoot-n-scoot without adding an unnecessary command interface for it.

BFC has stated that they would like to incorporate a better TacAI defense if possible.

[M1A1TC]

Thanks Huntarr Ill give that a try

[Flanker15]

That's a good movement order there but it wouldn't help much if your vehicle got caught unprepared.

The AI needs to be able to act by itself in situations where it is in danger.

[Huntarr]

BFC has stated that they would like to incorporate a better TacAI defense if possible.

BFC knows that there is a problem with breaking TARGET. Target fixation

[thewood]

I think Flanker is talking about the AI moving out of danger.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander:

In real life a tank in defensive position, turret down, will pull up, fire 1-2 shots, back back down. So its exposed only for about 6-8 seconds.

So, a modern AFV with a large caliber weapon can pull into a turret-exposed position, acquire a target, fire two rounds, and then reverse into an unexposed position in 6-8 seconds. Remarkable. Tell us more.

In CMSF, the tank finds a target, and then just sits there, even if it gets hit. No self preservation at all. Very unrealistic.

Nah, what's unrealistic is declaring a cease-fire every sixty seconds so that players can micro-plot the behavior of every unit in the battle. In fact, its down-right silly.

This especially important if you arent playing RT mode, where you can ajust on the fly if you are baby-sitting each tank.

Hey, in CMx1, all that any player did was baby-sit. In watching others play the game, what was ultra-hokey was the extent to which some would take hours to plot a move, only to undo it all at the beginning of the NEXT orders phase.

Silly, silly, silly.

PoE

[Lee]

"Nah, what's unrealistic is declaring a cease-fire every sixty seconds so that players can micro-plot the behavior of every unit in the battle. In fact, its down-right silly."

Not if the player is in effect forced to do the thinking for every officer and sergeant in his force, which is exactly what happens in any CM wargame. If I have to do the thinking for that many men (which you wouldn't have to do in a real-life battle), then I demand the time needed to think all that stuff through. So the pauses at 60 second intervals are actually pretty realistic considering that it's needed to have the men continue to behave in a detailed way that they would be capable of on their own in a real battle.

[Chainsaw]

quote:Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander:

In real life a tank in defensive position, turret down, will pull up, fire 1-2 shots, back back down. So its exposed only for about 6-8 seconds.

So, a modern AFV with a large caliber weapon can pull into a turret-exposed position, acquire a target, fire two rounds, and then reverse into an unexposed position in 6-8 seconds. Remarkable. Tell us more.///

Sorry? are you sarcastic or what? (guess im misunderstanding you and just want to know more right?)

Max allowed time for a swedish tank in BattlePosition is 10 SECONDS!

and with a loader that loads a new round in 4-5 seconds firing 2 rounds and then hulldown again isnt a big thing, its a regular thing to happend.

Okey you cant be an armour guy (dont blame you, not ewerybody can be perfect )

1. TC desides he gonna take battleposition here.

2. Driver drives slowly upp in BP, the TC scans in his PERI after targets, find a target, overides the gunner on it.

3. Driver moves all the way up so the barrel goes over the berm, gunner says "stop" when barrel is over the berm.

4. as the TC have overided the gunner on target the gunner just needs to lase and blaze.

5. BANG

6. TC yells "Ceasefire" or "Reengage" depending on first shot. if reenagage:

7. TC shouts to loader "Sabot!"

8. Loader take a sabot round from ready rack and pulls into the breach, and press the safety when done, at the same time yelling "UP!"

9. Gunner reports "on the way" and fires a new round.

10. during all this the driver is sitting and counting 1..2...3...4... and when comes to 9 he shouts it out, making TC aware that time is up. (and ofcourse engage reverse gear, my driver did that at the same time he hit the brake in a BP)

11. TC orders "Driver reverse" and leads him to cover.

All this takes 10 seconds, if gunner has battlesight (1200m) and target is within that range you cut the time with 1 second or more.

So what M1A1TankCommander is claiming is 100% real.

/Chainsaw

[Sixxkiller]

How long does it take for Sweedish Battle Tank to bring me 2 Sweedish Bikini Team girls?

[Prince of Eckmühl]

Originally posted by Chainsaw:

TC desides he gonna take battleposition here.

2. Driver drives slowly upp in BP, the TC scans in his PERI after targets, find a target, overides the gunner on it.

3. Driver moves all the way up so the barrel goes over the berm, gunner says "stop" when barrel is over the berm.

4. as the TC have overided the gunner on target the gunner just needs to lase and blaze.

5. BANG

6. TC yells "Ceasefire" or "Reengage" depending on first shot. if reenagage:

7. TC shouts to loader "Sabot!"

8. Loader take a sabot round from ready rack and pulls into the breach, and press the safety when done, at the same time yelling "UP!"

9. Gunner reports "on the way" and fires a new round.

10. during all this the driver is sitting and counting 1..2...3...4... and when comes to 9 he shouts it out, making TC aware that time is up. (and ofcourse engage reverse gear, my driver did that at the same time he hit the brake in a BP)

11. TC orders "Driver reverse" and leads him to cover.

All this takes 10 seconds, if gunner has battlesight (1200m) and target is within that range you cut the time with 1 second or more.

/Chainsaw

Care to break down steps 1-11 into time increments, from the time the vehicle turret is initially exposed until it's turret is back under full cover?

PoE

[Chainsaw]

Originally posted by Sixxkiller:

How long does it take for Sweedish Battle Tank to bring me 2 Sweedish Bikini Team girls?

0.2 Seconds (we have them in store! )

[Chainsaw]

Originally posted by Prince of Eckmühl:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chainsaw:

TC desides he gonna take battleposition here.

2. Driver drives slowly upp in BP, the TC scans in his PERI after targets, find a target, overides the gunner on it.

3. Driver moves all the way up so the barrel goes over the berm, gunner says "stop" when barrel is over the berm.

4. as the TC have overided the gunner on target the gunner just needs to lase and blaze.

5. BANG

6. TC yells "Ceasefire" or "Reengage" depending on first shot. if reenagage:

7. TC shouts to loader "Sabot!"

8. Loader take a sabot round from ready rack and pulls into the breach, and press the safety when done, at the same time yelling "UP!"

9. Gunner reports "on the way" and fires a new round.

10. during all this the driver is sitting and counting 1..2...3...4... and when comes to 9 he shouts it out, making TC aware that time is up. (and ofcourse engage reverse gear, my driver did that at the same time he hit the brake in a BP)

11. TC orders "Driver reverse" and leads him to cover.

All this takes 10 seconds, if gunner has battlesight (1200m) and target is within that range you cut the time with 1 second or more.

/Chainsaw

Care to break down steps 1-11 into time increments, from the time the vehicle turret is initially exposed until it's turret is back under full cover?

PoE </font>

[Huntarr]

http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=7319&hl=engagement+time

of interest.

The key point is there is a major difference between gunnery range times and actual combat. You have the luxury of knowing your not getting shoot back at. So a safe bet is 10-20 secs

[Chainsaw]

The key point is there is a major difference between gunnery range times and actual combat. You have the luxury of knowing your not getting shoot back at. So a safe bet is 10-20 secs [/QB]

For what exactly?

When I play Steelbeasts Pro PE (wich is a tank simulator) it lists time from ID to its killed, and thats under "real" circumstanses, not tank range in other words, and there i am around 15 seconds in average (ranges from 2 seconds to 20 seconds depending on what happends) so average time to enemy is down 10-20 seconds I can agree on, but what exactly was it you meant with your comment?

/Chainsaw

[M1A1TC]

Thats why we do gunneries - so we do it the same way in combat

BTW, I used to fire about 60-70 rounds per year. Russian tankers get about 2-3 rounds per their whole career, if they are lucky. This is no BS, I talked with a Russian ex-tanker.

Chainsaw, thanks for backing me up. You and me definatly know what we are talking about. Are you a tanker?

The time I quoted , 2 rounds in 6-8 seconds, is in perfect conditions, with everyone doing their job perfectly. Both enemy targets would be exposed, loader is quick, and gunner is experienced.

I used to load one round every 3 seconds when I was young private 9 years ago

Posted by DKTanker on that linked site:

"Now, the first round is loaded, the crew sees the targets come up, the gunner might even range to the first target (the TC must not issue a fire command at this point because time will start with his command even if the targets aren't up). As soon as both targets are up the TC gives a quick fire command and the round is down range within 2 seconds. The loader automatically reloads, the gunner on one or the other targets by second 5, round down range in 7. Now a sense of panic hits the crew. Either one or the other or both targets have failed to be hit...time to reengage. Third round down range in 13 seconds quickly followed by round number 4 at 18 seconds. Very good crews can service both targets in 6-8 seconds.

Yes, it's possible. What should be of a greater concern is the need to fire four rounds at two targets, especially as both targets will be at optimum BS range at the time of first round."

[ October 15, 2007, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: M1A1TankCommander ]

[Pandur]

Will vehicles be able to reverse for self preservation behaviour?

over at another thrad about the same thing more or less, someone suggested that tanks should "dodge" ATGM´s like you can do it manually in RT play if you ract instantly after you hear it going off.

i find that totaly over the top. most of the time you notice the first missile beeing shot at you by the impact i guess.

iam not positive that the AI should exploit the easylie spotted ATGMs in the game by dodging their missiles by themselfs.

is allready enough that you see the smoke cloud of the weapon systems going off unspotted, and can area fire them to hell. i mean that totaly defeats the fact that its not spotted.

but generally iam convinced to get such a behaviour in CMSF along the lines of CMx1 but tweaked to fit this new game.

[M1A1TC]

When I was being shot at by saggers in a US Army virtual reality training site, I, as a driver, through my perscope, saw a puff of fire and a small black ball flying toward me. I definatly had time to react and do some zig-zags.

I dont know how fast the new AT missiles fly, so I cant comment on that.

You are not going to "hear" it going off. Have you been inside a tank with the engine running?