How does C2 work?

[Sgt Joch]

Originally posted by Martin Krejcirik:

Borg Movement is probably difficult to prevent, but I would like something done with Area fire.

The problem is: some unit sees an enemy unit. You select another friendly unit, but it cannot see the same enemy yet. So you order area fire instead.

I think the area fire should be allowed only on the acion spots where an enemy unit was previously seen. If you order area fire on a 'clean' action spot, it should be delayed, or not allowed at all if out of C2. This would represent order coming from higher-ups. Why would a unit itself fire on somthing, if it cannot see anything suspicious there ?

"Area fire" can be exploited in a gamey fashion to circumvent relative spotting, but the problem I see is that many players, including me, use "area fire" to shoot at suspected/likely enemy positions even when no enemy units has been spotted.

The way I would like to see it handled would be to build in a command delay, much like air/arty fire, (but obviously shorter) before the order is executed representing the time between some sergeant saying "we should lob a few shells in that building, it looks like a good place for an ambush" and the wet behind the ears LT replying "good idea, sgt joch".

even an arbitrary across the board one minute delay to any "area fire" order would eliminate most of the gamey exploitation.

[ September 12, 2007, 07:05 AM: Message edited by: Sgt.Joch ]

[birdstrike]

May I jump on the bandwagon to bring back command delays.

[Cpl Steiner]

Here's another idea about how to eliminate gamey area fire.

Spotted targets (identified enemy icon): You can direct and area fire against the action spot with impunity. You could even have some sort of key modifier used here. Click "Target" and you target the unit; click Shift-Target and you target the action spot it is in with area fire.

Suspected targets (unknown enemy icon): You can only area fire against the action spot the unit is in. Clicking the unit's icon targets the action spot.

Blind targets (no icon): You can only area fire against the action spot. However, the firing unit automatically area fires against the action spot itself and any adjacent action spots in LOF, randomly selecting a new action spot to target every few bursts. If the initial target was a building level, only other adjacent building level action spots would be in the list (i.e. the men know they are supposed to hit the building but not necessarily which floor, or if several building tiles are next to each other, which part).

[ September 12, 2007, 07:27 AM: Message edited by: Cpl Steiner ]

[SlowMotion]

I don't understand why area fire to areas where you haven't spotted enemy units yet is gamey. How is it more gamey than ordering arty to some point on map?

The same with adding delays - I don't think there should be any more delay than it really takes. If you tell a MG to fire some area 300 meters away, how long a delay should there be? If you think area fire happens too fast, compare it to how quickly a tank like Abrams can shoot at a target after spotting it. Rotating turret and aiming is very fast and accurate.

[Martin Krejcirik]

Originally posted by Sgt.Joch:

The way I would like to see it handled would be to build in a command delay, much like air/arty fire, (but obviously shorter) before the order is executed representing the time between some sergeant saying "we should lob a few shells in that building, it looks like a good place for an ambush" and the wet behind the ears LT replying "good idea, sgt joch".

That's exactly what I was proposing, with the exception of previously (but no longer) spotted unit , in which case there should be no delay.

[Martin Krejcirik]

SlowMotion - the unit you give order to would have no idea (or suspiction) where to shoot.

Say there are two squads looking at a city block. Squad A spots an enemy at 2nd building, 6th floor. Squad B, at the same time sees nothing, just empty building.

You order squad B area fire 6th floor of 2nd building. Since squad B sees no threat there, we have to simulate they got the order via radio, so there should be a delay.

Situation would be different, if squad B got the information via PDA, or previously spotted the enemy (grayed marker). In such case there should be no delay, because we can assume the squad itself made the decision.

[ September 12, 2007, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: Martin Krejcirik ]

[Sgt Joch]

slowmotion, in a perfect world there would be no delay since of course, if a sarge says "put some fire on those woods", his grunts can execute in seconds.

the problem is, in the game, the player is an omniscient all knowing god like entity. In this scenario:

----squad"A"---BUILDING----tank"B"-------

-squad A takes fire from enemy squad in building;

-tank B has LOS to building but has not spotted the enemy unit because of relative spotting;

in RL, tank B would not be aware of the enemy units in the building until it receives a report/order which has gone through the chain of command "enemy unit in building to the left",

in the game, with relative spotting and C2, this should work like this as well, after a certain number of minutes, tank B should (once the Tac Ai is up to speed) spot and engage the enemy unit.

however in the game, what will normally happen is that a few seconds after the enemy squad opens up on squad "A", the player will order tank "B" to area fire on the building, thereby negating the effect of realitive spotting/C2.

The question is whether anything should be done to limit the gamey exploitation of this feature without unduly restricting the player's freedom of action.

martin, I'm a bit slow today, I still have trouble getting my head around the concept of "action spots".

[SlowMotion]

Originally posted by Sgt.Joch:

the problem is, in the game, the player is an omniscient all knowing god like entity.

...

however in the game, what will normally happen is that a few seconds after the enemy squad opens up on squad "A", the player will order tank "B" to area fire on the building, thereby negating the effect of realitive spotting/C2.

Ok, I read the whole thread and page 2 comments make more sense now. IMO if you want to add delay it should be done to all commands, not just area fire.

[MikeyD]

About Borg spotting.

I'm reminded of a conversation i had with an old WWII jungle fighter. He said once he saw a Janese soldier approach their foxholes at night and go from hole to hole counting the soldiers. He said the reason why the Japanese guy wasn't shot was that each G.I. in his hole was less concerned about the curious Jap than with the prospect of the whole company laying down blind fire on his hole if he tried to get a shot off!

So alot of 'borg spotting' could be credited to bad fire discipline - the "I'll fire in the direction that he's firing in" syndrome