Vehicle/gun movement improvements?

[Gordon]

I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere, so hopefully this isn't a duplicate question.

Is vehicle/gun motion being improved in the engine or will it still be abstracted? Specifically, all tanks can't pivot on their center point by counter-rotating their tracks, but must rather brake one track which slews the vehicle around. Wheeled vehicles also must engage in some sort of slewing around, or turn in with a series of forward and backward motions, which of course gets even more complicated when towing a trailer or gun.

So, just wondering if we'll see any improvement in this area with CMx2.

[Philippe]

And on a related note, are we happy with the amount of time that it takes to limber and unlimber guns? My sense is that it probably happens too quickly in CMx1, but I have nothing hard to base that on. I realize that it doesn't take that long to fold up the supports of a gun and secure them to the back of a halftrack (provided you didn't lose the sledgehammer). I would think what takes a bit more time is loading and unloading the ammo -- I find it hard to believe that you could get twenty minutes worth of shells in and out of a vehicle in under a minute, unless they were of low calibre. Input from real artillerymen on this would be useful.

And realistic towing behavior is also a concern. I don't like the fact that I can apparently hook an anti-tank gun to the side of a halftrack, and for all intents and purposes it counts as an attachment to the limbering hooks in back. And I really don't like the way limbered guns get pulled around coners -- the towing vehicle should take the turn before the pulled vehicle.

These issues will beome especially pronounced when BFC implements field kitchens, bakeries, and butcheries (for fresh sausage and schnitzel) which have to be towed and which are much less nimble than an anti-tank gun.

[Battlefront.com]

I had a discussion about this with Charles a while ago. The two issues raised here are:

Turning Radius

Towing

Both problems are related to TacAI issues. We hope to eventually solve both, but it remains to be seen how much we can do for the first release. Both of these issues are pretty thorny.

Steve

[flamingknives]

If towed guns are in, can we reverse them so as to avoid the oh-so-slow turning business?

[Battlefront.com]

Reversing with a towed weapon is one of the TacAI issues I mentioned above. If you've ever towed things that have a short wheelbase and fairly short length... they SUCK. I have a M101 trailer and that sucker will jackknife on you without the slightest second thoughts. Blood thing! Obviously a skilled driver knows how to handle this, but in order to simulate a skilled driver we have to make a skilled TacAI. Therein lies the problem.

Steve

[JonS]

Steve, FK is talking about moving unhitched guns.

[junk2drive]

Yes, as in the crew pushing the gun away from danger instead of twirling it around 180 and then pushing (if the crew lives that long).

[Battlefront.com]

I hope that we can make the speed of moving unhitched guns be more realistically modeled. Depending on the gun it could be anywhere between impossible to move (deployed 88 Flak) to piece of cake (light AT gun). 180 traverse should be treated differently than relocating. Etc.

Steve

[JonS]

That still isn't the question being asked.

Will we be able to push guns backwards (as well as forwards)?

[Battlefront.com]

AH! OK, now I get it. Cripes, couldn't you guys have just asked for a "Reverse" command to be applied to towed weapons? Ironic that the one time you guys don't presume to know the right solution, instead of just mentioning the problem, is one of the few times it would have helped

Yes, I would hope we could allow towed weapons a "Reverse" command similar to vehicles.

Steve

[Zalgiris 1410]

In order to 'reverse' or withdraw an untowed gun I should imagine that the crew for the most part pulls it back out of danger while trying to obtain some admittedly only minimal protection from the gun shield rather than dashing infront of it to push it while all exposed!

Same goes for mortars and HMGs as well IMO.

[stoat]

How do you push a mortar or machine gun? The weapons are broken into pieces and carried.

[stoat]

Excluding Maxims, of course.

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by stoat:

How do you push a mortar or machine gun? The weapons are broken into pieces and carried.

MG and light medium mortars can be, and were, moved short distances set up on their bases, and some kind of special command to represent this (not unlike the reverse command above) might not be a bad idea. Typically, 2 soldiers carry the weapon between them; not dissimilar to a 2-man rescue carry, if you're familiar with that.

It's a technique I've seen depicted on several US Army manuals training films from the period. Judging by the films, you could move the weapon pretty quickly this way, but it was probably also quite tiring. I assume it was used mostly to move the weapon short distance into, or out of the line of fire.

Cheers,

YD

[stoat]

Yes, but my point was, aside from the Maxim, you don't actually push the weapons, and you have no gun shield.

[Zalgiris 1410]

My point stoat is that this 'reverse' or withdraw order should be conducted by the crews using some pull technique from behind a shield or not, as aposed to when they actualy push their weapon forward.

[stoat]

Kind of like a reverse "sneak" where the weapon is dragged behind while keeping a low profile. Gotcha.

[JonS]

Originally posted by Zalgiris 1410:

My point stoat is that this 'reverse' or withdraw order should be conducted by the crews using some pull technique from behind a shield or not, as aposed to when they actualy push their weapon forward.

Have you ever pushed a gun?

[Ardem]

I reading a book at the moment about these 37mm Pak crew, in CM traversing and moving a 37mm Pak seems to be a real chore and limber and unlimbers, these guys were pushing pulling limber and unlimbering this gun everywhere and in the course of a single battle they might do it twice to three times, especially on attack.

They really didn't give times but they were keeping up with the infantry on advance most times, atleast in the rear ranks of the advancing company.

[Zalgiris 1410]

Originally posted by JonS:

Have you ever pushed a gun?

Well no not personally, but for this discussion I'm referring to most of the whole assigned crew members being involved in either pushing or pulling their guns at least.

[edward_n_kelly]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

MG and light medium mortars can be, and were, moved short distances set up on their bases, and some kind of special command to represent this (not unlike the reverse command above) might not be a bad idea. Typically, 2 soldiers carry the weapon between them; not dissimilar to a 2-man rescue carry, if you're familiar with that.

YD

Actually I cn point you to at least one DCM won by an Australian. Occurred at El Alamein where he picked up and moved a complete Vickers MMG in a single load (ie assembled, loaded and full of water) from one side of a rise to the other to drive off a German attack. Distance was about 80 yards, under fire from all sorts of things.....

There were other instances concerning British, Australian, Canadians and others in WWI and they had "Western front" conditions to contend with !

Edward

[Kanonier Reichmann]

I can imagine the adrenalin rush to achieve that feat would have been pretty significant. I'd also bet he couldn't repeat the effort if not under duress and fire once the battle was over.

Regards

Jim R.

[Tero]

With the reverse/forward command for guns you need also to have additional new commands and entrencments/gun positions which allow shoot and scoot and covering of the the guns during barrages and such like.

[flamingknives]

While we're on the subject of guns, will the ammunition be modelled somewhat separately?

The gun itself can be maneuvered quite rapidly if it's one of the smaller ones, but going back for the ammo would really slow you down over longer distances. Any chance we could leave it on the tractor vehicle?

[Philippe]

I think the question that needs to be answered first is whether the ammunition was completely unloaded or not. And this is probably going to vary from national army to national army. And we're still waiting for Real Artillerymen to weigh in on what that was.

I have no idea what was actually done, but I keep thinking of halftracks as mechanized caissons, which is probably wrong.