Marine Corps: Get Some!

[Fusilier9]

“but to attack Marines by saying we are exagerating and we have inferiority complexes is not simply disagreeing with tactics, or the way we do things, it's actually attacking Marines as people on a personal level. That is wrong. State you opinion all you want, but I would expect that you would keep it from being personal.”

I don’t think I was attacking anyone but just responding to your inaccurate comments.

“Hell, when I said the army is an occupying force, maybe I was wrong,”

Progress has been made. 

“but I never said that Army guys are "THIS."

No, just an occupying force that is lax with bad tactics and a propensity to be ambushed.

“You know, instead of coming in hear calling me names, you should try to talk with some respect and with some maturity. You can't call me a Tool over my opinions and then tell me to grow up. You should take your own advice. As you can see, I didn't call any names. If you don't like what I say, then fine, to each his own, but don't come in here acting like that. Call me a Tool to my face, then I'll actually respect that, but name calling behind a computer is cowardice.”

Never called you a name or told you to grow up. If you were standing before me right now, I would state the same opinion.

I served with about 17 marine second lieutenants when I went through Officer Basic Course in 1986. They are fine officers and excellent warriors. We enjoyed some friendly banter but we also had mutual respect and a desire to cooperate with one another. I have worked with many ex-marines and have several that are my subordinates now. We enjoy a bit of inter-service rivalry surely. However, they don’t take it to a personal level.

”I would like to end this conversation, actually, it's becoming an argument, and that's not what I intended to happen. So do you think we can chill out and respect each other as military men? And if you aren’t in the military, I don't think you have any bussiness telling any of us what's right or wrong. Again. All branches are needed, please forgive my statement about the "occupying force," surely I do realize the army has the capacity for being an aggressive force.

Fusilier9, thank you for being respectful, but I still feel your comments in the beginning were to personal, but hey, water under the bridge. No hard feelings.”

Yep! I can chill out and let’s move on. Looking forward to the next CM game and hope they will quickly add a module that includes the USMC.

[civdiv]

Originally posted by Fusilier9:

"I'm also very happy to read that you will have Marines in the game, because let's just face it, the Army is in Iraq to stabalize it, while the Corps is in Iraq to hunt down terrorists..."

The Marine Corps is full of first rate warriors but the ability of many of you to exaggerate is also remarkable. I think there is also a bit of an inferiority complex among some marines. Just because the marines weren't assigned the main offensive effort in either Operation Iraqi Freedom or Operation Desert Storm doesn't mean you should feel slighted.

Hmmm, I have to chime in as I pareticipated in both operations. The reality is that in Desert Storm the USMC completed its mission while the Army failed to. The USMC's mission was to force the Iraqi forces out of Kuwait. And they succeeded, a lot faster than was planned.

The Army was supposed to cut-off the Iraqi forces as they retreated and destroy them. They failed to do this.

In regards to Iraq (the latest edition), it's actually the Army that is very jealous of the Marines, because we got all the press. An Nasiriya was the most publicized engagement of the war. And it was the USMC that essentially saved the remainder of Jessica Lynch's unit, Lynch herself, and all the other Army POWs.

CFLCC (The Army Command) was very upset that the USMC in Iraq was getting all the press, and after An Nasiriya they really made an attempt to push the USMC out of the limelight. And The same thing happened between IMEF and IIMEF on the USMC side. IMEF had the bulk of the forces, but An Nasiriya was a IIMEF fight (TF Tarawa). IMEF was upset that IIMEF got all of the press.

And don't forget, that just like in Kuwait, it was the Army that neeeded the pause in Iraq, because they couldn't move fast enough, and it was the USMC that fought so hard against it.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I love the Army. But Marines jealous of them? Please!

[GasMask]

POSTED BY Fusilier9

"“Hell, when I said the army is an occupying force, maybe I was wrong,”

Progress has been made. "

Come on now. Don't confuse kindness for weakness. If I admit something might have been wrong don't try to belittle me. No progress has been made, you havn't changed me, or my views in any way.

And about the name calling, I wasn't talking about you, I was talking about the other guy who called me a tool.

[Fusilier9]

“Hmmm, I have to chime in as I pareticipated in both operations. The reality is that in Desert Storm the USMC completed its mission while the Army failed to. The USMC's mission was to force the Iraqi forces out of Kuwait. And they succeeded, a lot faster than was planned. The Army was supposed to cut-off the Iraqi forces as they retreated and destroy them. They failed to do this.”

You should study the campaign a bit more to have a better understanding of how it unfolded. The Iraqis fled from Kuwait because they were about to be encircled. Overall, the Iraqi Army was destroyed but it was a combination of air and ground forces (yes, Army too). You might read about the Battle of 73 Easting. The Army destroyed some of Iraq’s best units (Republican Guard) there.

”In regards to Iraq (the latest edition), it's actually the Army that is very jealous of the Marines, because we got all the press. An Nasiriya was the most publicized engagement of the war. And it was the USMC that essentially saved the remainder of Jessica Lynch's unit, Lynch herself, and all the other Army POWs.”

CFLCC (The Army Command) was very upset that the USMC in Iraq was getting all the press, and after An Nasiriya they really made an attempt to push the USMC out of the limelight. And The same thing happened between IMEF and IIMEF on the USMC side. IMEF had the bulk of the forces, but An Nasiriya was a IIMEF fight (TF Tarawa). IMEF was upset that IIMEF got all of the press.”

Not sure who received the majority of the press or if someone was jealous of another. There were correspondents with all units. The Battle of An Nasiriya was an important engagement but not the primary effort. It was the capture of Baghdad that caused the collapse of the Iraqi regime. I seem to recall much reporting on the thunder runs into the city. Press coverage is a moot point anyway.

”And don't forget, that just like in Kuwait, it was the Army that neeeded the pause in Iraq, because they couldn't move fast enough, and it was the USMC that fought so hard against it.”

Don’t think there was any pause in Kuwait. The Army’s pause around Karbala was typical of blitzkrieg-style operations and tactics because they had advanced so far (much farther than the marines had) and were preparing for the final thrust to take Baghdad. I seem to recall the marines were slowed by the sandstorm as well. Regardless, it was the 2nd Brigade of the 3rd Infantry Division that was driving through the streets of Baghdad first. Not bad for “having to take a pause.”

”Hey, don't get me wrong, I love the Army. But Marines jealous of them? Please!”

I love the marines as well. However, your spin on the facts tends to show your defensiveness over something.

[GasMask]

POSTED BY FUSILIER9

"I love the marines as well. However, your spin on the facts tends to show your defensiveness over something."

Here we go again. Stop trying to make it sound like we're psychologically inferrior, or we're scared children deep down man. If anyone is defensive it's you.

[Fusilier9]

“Here we go again. Stop trying to make it sound like we're psychologically inferrior, or we're scared children deep down man. If anyone is defensive it's you.”

I’ve never uttered one criticism of the USMC or its illustrious service. I criticized some of you for your erroneous depiction of the United States Army and its own illustrious service. Feel free to tout the accomplishments of the USMC. They are tremendous but don’t denigrate the contribution of the Army while doing so.

We can go on and on. Bottom line is that the Army is not a mere occupying force, it didn’t fail in its mission in Kuwait or Iraq, it doesn’t have poor tactics, and its soldiers are not lax. These are the inaccurate words of marines in describing the Army.

You don’t need to falsely report history to tout the tremendous achievements of the USMC. These stand on their own laurels.

[Scott B]

Disclaimer: I'm a former Army officer.

I don't think it's an inferiority thing on either side. I think it's just that combat arms types are almost psychotically competitive. I'd be a little worried if they weren't.

That said, it can be irritating. I've a high opinion for Marines in the abstract - perhaps but probably not entirely a result of their excellent PR machine - but I've never met a Marine in person that was actually willing to compare notes and practices. They have all pretty much started from the assumption that they have nothing to learn from the Army. Given their service's reputation as being the most intellectually sophisticated ("maneuver warfare" and all that), I'd have thought they'd be more open to that sort of thing, although it's not really a surprise that that's not happening much at the junior officer level.

I'd be really interested in hearing from someone who has experiences in both services comment on the Army vs Marine leadership and command styles, because I definitely have the impression that these are quite different. Most of what I hear in this area is based on speculation and stereotype, though.

Scott

[GasMask]

"I don't think it's an inferiority thing on either side. I think it's just that combat arms types are almost psychotically competitive. I'd be a little worried if they weren't."

Agreed. Everyone can always learn something from someone else. That's just life. I didn't mean any disrespect to the Army. Let us now become one with peace and harmony and the universe or whatever. The war is over there right?

[Bigduke6]

Gas Mask,

Is it really YOUR Corps? Can you change its behavior? Alter its policies? Sell it? Loan it to a friend? Influence when it decides to risk, or not, with your life? Get it to increase your salary? Give you a day off? Punish it? Convince it to return you your freedom, at your choice? Make it change its mind about forcing you to clean something?

Unless you are about O-5 or higher in rank, and probably O-7,I don't think it's "your" Marine Corps at all. My guess, you are a soldier in the Corps, a tiny piece of a very big organization. You have surrendered your freedom in exchange for being accepted into the organization, and now you are repeating pat phrases of that organization, in this forum.

You are welcome to your opinion, but if you assert those phrases are factually-based, then be ready for challenges. The Corps is a fine organization, but don't mistake their institutional attitudes and traditions for unvarnished reality.

In my opinion, getting every one in the Corps to call it "My Corps", as if they own it, is just a phrase used to keep soldiers in line, to enforce discipline. To make the members do what the decision-makers in the Corps want. Like I say, I doubt you're one of them.

Besides, there are about 200 million civilian taxpayers out there picking up the check for every single round, boot, and wierdly-sewn camoflage baseball cap in the Corps. If purchase is the definition of ownership, and ownership stake depends capital invested, then it is not Marines like you but the U.S. civilian population that owns the Marine Corps. Now, how many Marines even respect civilians?

And if you arn't (SIC) in the military, I don't think you have any bussiness (SIC) telling any of us what's right or wrong.

It sure doesn't seem like you fit that description. May I remind you your commander in chief and his direct subordinate in your chain of command are civilians?

I used the example of the German S.S. to reject your arguement that troops believing they are superior will win. They may have a better chance of winning battles, all other things being equal (and they never are) and as long as unit cohesion lasts. But they also, clearly, have a better chance of being maimed and dying in a war. That is far from my definition of "winning".

During WW2, their side with the really well-trained, dedicated, "elite" soldiers - Germany - did not win. It lost. The country those brilliant soldiers - the S.S. - were defending suffered one of the most catastrophic defeats a European society has suffered, ever.

I would say that's a pretty good argument against your point of view, which appears to be: The way to win is to believe you're the best, and be the best.

To repeat, during WW2 the best of Germany's soldiers, an entire generation of men, died on the East Front. Their only actual achievement was delaying the occupation of their country by the Red Army for several months. And the harder they resisted, the more likely the Red Army was going to be brutal - and it was - to the German civilians when it got there.

Theoretically, if these super soldiers had been true patriots, if they had seen the future clearly and really wanted to do what was best for their country, they would not have followed orders. They would not have sacrificed their lives for the reputation of a military unit soon to go out of existence.

Indeed, I think it's possible to argue, at least theoretically, the cream of the German military should have actively resisted the people leading their nation into a two-front war against the world's number one and two military powers. Von Stauffenberg and all that.

So yes, from a rational point of view, it would have made a great deal of sense for people like - the best of Germany's soldiers - to surrender. The men in the S.S. could have made a greater contribution to their society as members of a civilian population during the remainder of their natural lives, than as corpses somewhere on the Eastern Front.

Of course, if his side is going to win[/] the war, then the individual soldier has has the luxury of trying to become a super elite killer demon hero ueber soldier if he wants. His country isn't going to get punished for that kind of silly behavior.

But his becoming a super duper trooper, or not, has next to nothing to do with who will win the war. Winning a war depends on things like resources and morale and, these days, public relations spin.

A well-trained soldier is a tool of war, just like a tank or a bullet or a thermonuclear device. The difference is that, unlike the machines, you have to convince the soldier to fight. A good way to do that is to tell him, repeatedly, he is the best-trained, best-equipped, and best-skilled soldier in the world, ever, in all history. Young men love to hear that stuff.

But just because you've bought that song and dance, and choose to repeat it here, doesn't make it true.

(NB: I was in the U.S. Army infantry and from what I can tell, when it comes to basic infantry fighting, the average Marine unit beats the average Army unit six ways to Sunday. I respect the heck out the Corps, it's a fine military organization. Not the best in history in my book, but definately competent and worthy of healthy respect. Too bad they don't make 'em like Chesty Puller any more, though.)

[GasMask]

Yes, it is my Marine Corps, it's every Marines Marine Corps. We earned it, and we wern't "accepted" into it like some club house or country club. I belong to the Corps and the Corps belongs to me. It's my Corps and I'll defend it, and love it, and make it better. Yes individual Marines affect the Corps. That's something you don't understand, and never will. You don't join the Corps for money, or because your friends do it, or because it makes you cool. You join because you want to be part of something elite and deeper then anything you've ever been apart of. You don't understand that, because you arn't a Marine.

Sure, I was an enlisted man but what I did day to day, and what I did in Iraq affects the Marine Corps, it's not just a bunch of Generals sitting around deciding that they're going to say we're the best and that's that. If a Marine wants, and believes the Marine Corps is the best, he makes it the best by giving it his all in everything he does. Once again, you might not understand that.

So, the civilian population pays taxes and thus owns the corps huh? Well you know, Marines are Americans too, that's why many of us join; to protect America, and yeah, we pay taxes too.

Now, why don't you stop coming on here and attacking the Marine Corps and me? Why don't you stop being a jerk and just go about your bussiness? If you don't like what I say, and if you think that the Marine Corps is a sham or a myth, or just something that we tell our selves is the best because it makes us feel better, then fine. But I don't see you joining up to prove it wrong. Until you join the Corps and write a book about it, then you can kiss my green Marine ASS.

[Wisbech_lad]

It is sweet to see that spelling is obviously not considered a requirement to be elite.

Maybe we should all have a jolly sing-song eh?

"I believe children are the future - give them a sense of pride"

Bugger, forgot the words.

PS Bigduke6 was referring to the well documented & studied techniques of training combat soldiers. They haven't changed much since the Spartans...

[Bigduke6]

But I don't see you joining up to prove it wrong. Until you join the Corps and write a book about it, then you can kiss my green Marine ASS.

Wait a minute...yes...I think I see a challenge in there.

Yep! Gas Mask has just told me I know nothing about the Marine Corps, because I've never written a book about the organization.

Woo hoo! That means I better demonstrate my knowledge on the subject, and I get to read books to acquire that knowledge. Whatta conincidink! I just happen to read books all the time! This should be fun!

Ok wise guy, answer me this:

1. What was Hopkins' Expedition, when was it, and why should Marines know about it? For extra points, what's a turnback and what color were Hopkin's?

2. What do the Bolo Wars, tin cans, small rocks, and Chesty Puller all have in common?

3. What was the problem with the M-1 rifles used by Marines on Guadacanal? (Heheheheh!)

4. Why is the Tun Tavern important to the Corps?

5. What is the Marine connection to the musical "South Pacific"?

6. Who was Holland Smith and what was his nickname?

No Googling now, that's cheating!

The amazing thing about this forum is that there are plenty of people here who not only know the answers to those questions, but also would kick the ever-loving Dickens out of me in Marine Corps Trivial Pursuits.

But Gas Mask, I bet it ain't you.

[GasMask]

I don't understand why all you people are trying to make me sound stupid and are attacking my intelligence. I admit that I was wrong about the occupying force comment but you people keep trying to fight me. I just don't understand why you can't stop being jerks and be mature about this.

And about the "challenge". What I meant is you will never know what it's like to be a Marine till you are one. You can read all the books in the world and try to understand the Marine Corps, but being one is the only way to "get it".

Maybe instead of trying to insult me you could talk to me.

Knowlege is power, yes, but it doesn't mean you understand everything or comprehend it.

Today is my son's birthday, so I'm not spending a lot of time online for you. I will however tell you that any Marine that doesn't know that the Marine Corps was founded in Tun Tavern on 10 November 1775 wouldn't be a good Marine.

[civdiv]

fusilier;

You are wrong about Desert Storm, period. The whole reason the Army's offensive was moved up a day is because the Marine's were moving a lot faster than they Army thought they would. And I know all about the Battle of 73-Easting. But that fact remains, the Marine's mission was to recapture Kuwait and Kuwait City. They succeeded. The Army's mission was to destroy the Repulican Guard, which they did not do.

Oh, and how about Schwartkof designating the site of the surrender at a location still controlled by the Iraqis? He had received an erronious POSREP from one of his units, and thought the site he had selected was controlled by the Army. It wasn't, so, despite the ceasefire, he had his units attack the Iraqis to seize the position.

Did you know that Schwartkof was considered a bit of a boob by the Army? That CENTCOM was literally a couple of weeks from being eliminated before the Iraqis invaded Kuwait? Schwartzkof had 'been put out to pasture' at CENTCOM because it was going away. He was slated for retirement.

In regards to the press, it is a big deal, because ultimately it has an effect on future US policies, and on defense appropriations. You talk about the USMCs PR efforts, but then say the press isn't important?

Also note that the previous Commandant, for the first time in history, was asked to stay on and become CINC-E, which has tradionally been an Army comand. That sure pissed the Army off. And then the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs becomes a Marine, for the first time in history.

Let's not forget the severe angst Camp Rhino caused the Army in Afghanistan. The Marines had to go in and seize the terrain because the Army, despite all this 'expeditionary' talk they had been spouting, they couldn't conduct the mission.

In regards to my talking about the pause, and mentioning Kuwait, I agree I wasn't clear. I meant the Army couldn't keep during Desert Storm I. And the pause in Iraq during the latest conflict was because the 3ID couldn't keep up. IMEF didn't want to stop, but CFLCC ordered the halt because 3ID needed to stop and rest and refit. And in regards to the Army travelling further than the Marines, that is bologny. Go look at the maps. 3ID went directly to An Nasiriya, and then button hooked to the west. IMEF took Um Qusr and the penisula, and then moved north to An Nasiroya, and came into Baghdad from the east. And then they went all the way up and took Tikrit.

And again, I am NOT bashing the Army. As a Marine I have much more in common with an Army soldier than I do, even with our brothers in the British Royal Marines, who we have an EXTREMELY close relationship with.

We do some thing better than you guys do. You guys do some things better than we do. We have seperate, but closely related missions. But the fact remains, we are smaller, and we can be more selective, and we can be elite. While the Army has elite units, the Marine Corps is elite.

bigduke,

Quit comparing the USMC to the SS, that is absolutely ridiculous, inappropriate, and downright hateful. The subset is elite formations, of which, arguably, the SS AND the USMC are members. The subset is not the SS. By your logic then the Army Rangers, the British Royal Marines and Commandos, the Janniseries, all can be compared to the SS. Stop it, it's inaccurate and downright nasty! And if you want to argue by analogy, I propose an accurate analogy, at least more accurate than the comparison of the SS and the USMC. While the USMC shares NOTHING with the SS, except an elite status as warriers, the US Army can be very directly compared to the French military. At the dawn of the US Army, the French military was copied almost verbatim. This close relationship and imitation was reinvigorated during WWI. It was only when the French military was savagely handled by the blitzkreig that the US Army was weened from the French teat. But you can't get rid of almost 200 years of influence in a couple of decades, and the mark of the French military is still clearly present on the US Army. Myself, having been in a previous life, a USMC Forward Observer, and hence, trained by US Army doctrine, can testify that the present US Military field artillery procedures are almost a direct copy of the French WWI procedures. Yes, they have been modernized, but the influence is still there. So if your going to tout you SS/USMC anaology, where there is absolutely no connection besides battlefield acumen, then the French Army/US Army comparison is more accurate to an exponential degree. And if you want to be compared to their dismal historical record, fine.

In regards to your questions, I'm not sure of the purpose, but I like trivia.

1. It was an anti-indian camapign, but that's all I know about it.

2. Hmmm, maybe rocks with tin cans in them as part of an early warning mechnaism and Chesty cam up with the idea?

3. This is where the M1 was first fielded, or maybe it would be more accurate to say this was its baptism of fire. There were only two real problems with the M1, and one is not a real problem. The 'ping' sound that was made when the stripper clip is ejected was cited by many as a clear audible tone that the rifle was empty. However, as that sound is MUCH less than the sound of the weapon firing, it is really a non-issue.

The other issue was the stainless steel gas cylinder was pretty reflective. That issue was never really solved, except by a myriad of field expedient methods.

I'm not sure what you are talking about, 'M1 thumb'?

4. Tun Tavern is where the first meeting for the formation of the Marine Corps was discussed. Discussions were led by the eventual first commandant of the Marine Corps, Captain Samuel Nicholas. Congress had authorized the raising of 2 battalions of Marines. However, as Gen Krulak points out in his book, 'First to Fight', there is no evidence that these 2 battalions were ever raised.

5. I have no idea. Could it be that the movie and musical were adapted from a James Mitchener book and Mitchener was a Marine during WWII?

6. Howlin' Mad.

[ February 12, 2006, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: civdiv ]

[civdiv]

Originally posted by GasMask:

I don't understand why all you people are trying to make me sound stupid and are attacking my intelligence. I admit that I was wrong about the occupying force comment but you people keep trying to fight me. I just don't understand why you can't stop being jerks and be mature about this.

And about the "challenge". What I meant is you will never know what it's like to be a Marine till you are one. You can read all the books in the world and try to understand the Marine Corps, but being one is the only way to "get it".

Maybe instead of trying to insult me you could talk to me.

Knowlege is power, yes, but it doesn't mean you understand everything or comprehend it.

Today is my son's birthday, so I'm not spending a lot of time online for you. I will however tell you that any Marine that doesn't know that the Marine Corps was founded in Tun Tavern on 10 November 1775 wouldn't be a good Marine.

Don't let the antagonistic many on this board turn you off from the game. No one who has not served in the Corps will ever understand what it means to us. The Corps is a special place, and whether it be the leadership, the professionalism, the esprit de corps, whatever, the other services will never understand it. They don't understand the exactness of our closs order drill, or our studying of our own history, or our marksmanship standards.

I had a funny about a year ago. I was at an joint command and I accidentely parked my rental car in one of the army company commander's parking spaces. When I had to leave a motorcycle was parked behind my car, attempting to park me in. I had to get on the road for an appointment about an hour away, so after spending a couple of minutes looking for the person, I just moved the bike, and drove away.

The next day I went looking for the company commander. I was in civilian clothes, and my hair was out of regs (I was going to a duty out of uniform), and I walked into the company commander's office. I asked the 1stSgt if I could speak with the company commander. He asked me what my business was, and I told him I was here for my ass chewing as I was the one who had parked in the company commander's parking spot the previous day. At this point the company commander came out of her office. The 1stSgt laughed and said;

'You must be a Marine, right?'

I told him I was and asked him why he said that. He said no soldier would ever show up to receive his tidings the way I had.

Now the next day I was leaving for Afghanistan. So if I hadn't shown up, there was nothing they could do about it. It wasn't like they were looking for me or anything.

On another day I was driving down the PCH south of Monterey. There had been a mud-slide, and a flag guy stopped my car as they were clearing the road. I got out of my car, and mine was the only car stopped, there was almost no traffic on the road. I wandered over and started talking to the flag guy. We had chatted for a minute or so, and then, out of the blue, he said;

'You're a Marine, right?'

Now I was in civvies, in a rental car, and like litterally hours away from any Marine base, so I was sort of floored. I told him he was right, and asked him how he knew. He said that you could usually tell someone was in the military by their haircut. But you could tell a Marine by the way they carried themselves. And when I asked him he said he had never been in the military.

You can read all the books you want, but you will never understand.

[ February 12, 2006, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: civdiv ]

[Nidan1]

I find it interesting that Gas Mask's posting style waivers from downright illiterate, to quite intelligent and grammatically correct from one paragraph to another. This reminds me of the posting style of a former member of these forums, who has been banned on several occasions as different personas. You can see I made a comment very early in this thread to indicate my suspicions.

While I was in the Marine Corps a long time ago, I realize that it is easy to look up stuff on the internet, especially the significance of Tun Tavern, etc. So just knowing some Marine history wouldn't impress me much. If a contemporary Marine started grilling me about modern Marine Corps tactics, weapons and terminology, I might not be able to respond. I do have a DD214 and an Honorable Discharge certificate to prove my bona fides, plus I'm not spouting any crap that I have to back up.

I think that Gas Mask is way over the top, and in keeping with my suspicions he is doing it on purpose. I could be wrong, but so far he has not convinced me that he is on the level.

[Bigduke6]

Civdiv,

I'm just talking unit quality here, I'm not saying the Marines are the same as the S.S. Still, any good unit enforces discipline, and you gotta admit both the S.S. and the Marines did/do a good job on that. I disagree with you, I think it is quite possible to compare both of those organizations in terms of combat efficiency. And I think it is a definate fact that the dedication to the organization the leaders were/are able to put into the troops, is an extremely important part of the reason why both those organizations are/were outstanding organizations.

But I'm not saying the U.S. Marine Corps was as brutal, violent, or murderous as some S.S. units.

Any Marines I've insulted, my apologies, I've tried to make clear I think the Marines are an outstanding military formation, better than the U.S. infantry, and I was in the U.S. infantry.

I'll also stop making the comparison since Civdiv asked all nice and polite and all.

As to the game show...

1. It was an anti-indian camapign, but that's all I know about it.

Hmm...I could be wrong here, but I thought that was the Marines' first foreign deployment, 1775, Bahamas. I looked that one up in a book on Navies in the U.S. Revolution, maybe I'm mistaken there...

2. Hmmm, maybe rocks with tin cans in them as part of an early warning mechnaism and Chesty cam up with the idea?

BING! Well done! Yes, Chesty worked that one out in wars in Central America in the 1920s, in the Honduras I'm pretty sure. On Guadacanal he had his regiment rig the cans with gravel on the perimeter wire, the Japanese rattled the cans, and the rest, as they say, is history.

3. This is where the M1 was first fielded, or maybe it would be more accurate to say this was its baptism of fire. There were only two real problems with the M1, and one is not a real problem. The 'ping' sound that was made when the stripper clip is ejected was cited by many as a clear audible tone that the rifle was empty. However, as that sound is MUCH less than the sound of the weapon firing, it is really a non-issue.

The other issue was the stainless steel gas cylinder was pretty reflective. That issue was never really solved, except by a myriad of field expedient methods.

I'm not sure what you are talking about, 'M1 thumb'?

BZZZAT! Sorry, that was a trick question, only Army troops had M-1s at Guadacanal; the Marines had to make do - and they did very well indeed - with Springfields.

Your score is reduced to zero, would you like to try again?

4. Tun Tavern is where the first meeting for the formation of the Marine Corps was discussed. Discussions were led by the eventual first commandant of the Marine Corps, Captain Samuel Nicholas. Congress had authorized the raising of 2 battalions of Marines. However, as Gen Krulak points out in his book, 'First to Fight', there is no evidence that these 2 battalions were ever raised.

Oooh...impressive, I didn't know all that. All I knew was that where the first Marines were raised. You out-grogged me there, I admit it.

5. I have no idea. Could it be that the movie and musical were adapted from a James Mitchener book and Mitchener was a Marine during WWII?

BING! Your score is doubled, well done. Mitschner was on Okinawa, and wrote about it in Goodbye Darkness, a book a lot less fun than South Pacific.

6. Howlin' Mad.

BINGBINGBINGBING! Well done, your score is doubled again, would you like to try for the bonus round?

Well done Civdiv!

I gotta say, as a former Joe, the Marines always impress you with how bright they are, how they are just a little bit more on the ball than the Army infantry.

Well, almost all Marines, anyhoo...

[Splinty]

I've been staying out of this one, because I didn't think I had anything constructive to say. But I feel the need to add a few things to add to the Desert Storm statements. First of all, I was in Desert Storm with 1st AD, and although 73 Easting was an amazing show of the capabilities of an Armored Cav unit, it was by no means the major armored engagement of the war, that honor goes to the battle of Medina Ridge, which was the 2nd largest armored engagement in history after Kursk. During that battle 2 full brigades of the Medina division of the Republican Guard, along with nearly all of the Tawakalna Divison of the same organization were destroyed in less than 5 hours, by a combination of armor, mech infantry, artillery, and airpower (mostly A10s).

As to the halt before the Karbala Gap during OIF 3rd ID stopped simply because the logistical tail required for a heavy armored force is MUCH larger than is required for an MEU, and all those M1A2s and Bradleys use alot of fuel and

ammo, it's the nature of the beast not some imanginary scenario of incompetence as some posters have alluded to here. Finally all this inter-service rivalry is a good thing to some extent, it does allow members of a particular branch of the service to boast a little and have some fun at the others expense, but the truth of the matter is that the Marines and the Army are both very good at what they do (the Navy and the Air Force too)and it wouldn't hurt anyone on this board to admit that. BTW I've been in the Army going on 18 years and was in both Desert Storm and OIF, and am going back to Iraq next summer, so I do know that of which I speak.

[civdiv]

Originally posted by Bigduke6:

Civdiv,

As to the game show...

1. It was an anti-indian camapign, but that's all I know about it.

Hmm...I could be wrong here, but I thought that was the Marines' first foreign deployment, 1775, Bahamas. I looked that one up in a book on Navies in the U.S. Revolution, maybe I'm mistaken there...

You are talking about Nassau. I am not sure what Hopkins has to do with it. Basic USMC knowledge.

2. Hmmm, maybe rocks with tin cans in them as part of an early warning mechnaism and Chesty cam up with the idea?

BING! Well done! Yes, Chesty worked that one out in wars in Central America in the 1920s, in the Honduras I'm pretty sure. On Guadacanal he had his regiment rig the cans with gravel on the perimeter wire, the Japanese rattled the cans, and the rest, as they say, is history.

3. This is where the M1 was first fielded, or maybe it would be more accurate to say this was its baptism of fire. There were only two real problems with the M1, and one is not a real problem. The 'ping' sound that was made when the stripper clip is ejected was cited by many as a clear audible tone that the rifle was empty. However, as that sound is MUCH less than the sound of the weapon firing, it is really a non-issue.

The other issue was the stainless steel gas cylinder was pretty reflective. That issue was never really solved, except by a myriad of field expedient methods.

I'm not sure what you are talking about, 'M1 thumb'?

BZZZAT! Sorry, that was a trick question, only Army troops had M-1s at Guadacanal; the Marines had to make do - and they did very well indeed - with Springfields.

Your score is reduced to zero, would you like to try again?

You're wrong. The 2nd Raider Bn was one of the first USMC units to receive the M1 Garand. And some USMC units were issued the M1 as the Guadalcanal Campaign went on. There is also anecdotal evidence that Chesty Puller carried an M1 ashore during the initial amphibious assault so he could test it out.

4. Tun Tavern is where the first meeting for the formation of the Marine Corps was discussed. Discussions were led by the eventual first commandant of the Marine Corps, Captain Samuel Nicholas. Congress had authorized the raising of 2 battalions of Marines. However, as Gen Krulak points out in his book, 'First to Fight', there is no evidence that these 2 battalions were ever raised.

Oooh...impressive, I didn't know all that. All I knew was that where the first Marines were raised. You out-grogged me there, I admit it.

No googling was done for the initial answers, though I did google for this rebuttel. This is basic USMC knowledge and it is beaten into our heads. And as a former USMC SNCO, I was expected to know this stuff.

5. I have no idea. Could it be that the movie and musical were adapted from a James Mitchener book and Mitchener was a Marine during WWII?

BING! Your score is doubled, well done. Mitschner was on Okinawa, and wrote about it in Goodbye Darkness, a book a lot less fun than South Pacific.

BBBBZZZZTTT!!! You are talking about WIlliam Manchester not Mitchener. I have read 'Goodbye Darkness' and his book about Macarthur, so no googling was necessary. Go google to part about Manchester talking about how well hung he was.

6. Howlin' Mad.

BINGBINGBINGBING! Well done, your score is doubled again, would you like to try for the bonus round?

Well done Civdiv!

Basic USMC knowledge.

I gotta say, as a former Joe, the Marines always impress you with how bright they are, how they are just a little bit more on the ball than the Army infantry.

Well, almost all Marines, anyhoo...

[civdiv]

Ok, now some for you, and these are not all USMC questions;

1. Who is known as 'The most feared USMC drill instructor'?

2. When was Close Air Support developed and who developed it?

3. When was the first helicopter assault and who conducted it?

4. What is the story behind Taps?

5. What is 'M1 thumb'?

6. What is a 'truck', in reference to military tradition, and what is contained in each 'truck', at least in the USMC?

7. What is the origin of 'Leatherneck'?

8. What is the origin of 'Devil Dog'?

[GasMask]

Wow, once again, you guys try to insult my intelegence. You want to know why my typing isn't perfect and up to your standards? Well probably because I don't give a crap, and because I type sometimes in the day when I'm awake, and sometimes at night when I'm very sleepy. If you would spend more time trying to have a mature discussion with me and less time on my typing and with your attacks on me, then maybe I'd be a little less agrivated.

Now, as for the acusation that I'm some guy who was banned. No, I'm sorry, but I'm just another Marine that you have to put up with. I was in 2/2, 3/6, and 2nd Marine Reg. I deployed to Iraq and am a consistent expert riflemen. I now live in Lexington Kentucky because I decided to get a civilian job and spend more time with my two sons. If this is anything like that other guy, then his life must suck just as bad as mine.

Now I won't come here and try to prove to you guys that I'm a Marine and that I have all this knowledge. I have a great deal of knowledge yes, but it's packed away in the back of my head some where, because believe it or not, I have a life, and I don't have time to read a lot of books and smoke a pipe with my glass of Gin, talking to my book club about how great I am.

I will tell you this though, I scored a perfect 100 on my knowledge test in Boot Camp, and I still know a lot of stuff, but I'm tired of defending my self, I proved my self on the Island years ago when I recieved my EGA and I'm not about to lower my self to some army guy, or civilian who has no idea what that's like or have any clue as to who I really am inside.

So, can we just F'en chill? Can you please stfu with your insults and show some respect? I would really apreciate that. Man to man ok?

Semper Fidelis CivDiv

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by GasMask:

Wow, once again, you guys try to insult my intelegence.

Yeah, stop insulting his intelegence!

[Bigduke6]

CivDiv,

I am in awe of your knowledge and you definately put me in my place. Score one for the Corps.

Originally posted by civdiv:

Ok, now some for you, and these are not all USMC questions;

1. Who is known as 'The most feared USMC drill instructor'?

2. When was Close Air Support developed and who developed it?

3. When was the first helicopter assault and who conducted it?

4. What is the story behind Taps?

5. What is 'M1 thumb'?

6. What is a 'truck', in reference to military tradition, and what is contained in each 'truck', at least in the USMC?

7. What is the origin of 'Leatherneck'?

8. What is the origin of 'Devil Dog'?

1. Don't know.

2. I am sure there is a Marine answer, but I would say that was Douhot provided the theoretical base, Fuller the tactical, and guys like Gudarian the first real implementation. Sorta depends on how you define CAS, I guess.

3. Hmm...how about the French moving troops around during the latter stages of Indochina? That would be early to mid 1950s.

4. Don't know.

5. I'm guessing, it's from a Springfield-trained rifleman using an M-1, and smashing his thumb on the chamber clearer after each shot, since he was trained to operate a bolt.

6. Japanese WW2 Naval Base. No, just kidding. Uh...since I doubt Studebaker's the answer, don't know.

7. Another guess, but I'm pretty sure it's because the Marines kept the high-neck, closed-throat tunic a good deal longer than the other services, I'm pretty sure into WWI.

8. Don't know, but would love to find out.

[Abbott]

I have a Marine anecdote I can interject. A buddy of mine was stationed at Camp Pendleton. After a few arrests for minor incidents, most often AWOL, the Corps had decided that he could use the help of one of their medical officers, a psychiatrist. After several one-hour appointments where he sat in the Colonel’s waiting area never once seeing the Colonel he decided on a different tact. About an hour before his next (and last) appointment he dropped two hits of LSD. He then kept his appointment and intentionally mentioned his drug use to the Colonel’s receptionist. The Colonel himself promptly made an appearance in his own reception area after being informed of his never before seen patient’s condition, inviting him into his office. After being given a seat in the Doctor’s office it was explained to him by the Colonel that he would be extremely interested in interviewing my friend as he was considering writing a book concerning similar issues. My buddy John Blank (his first name is John) promptly informed the Doctor that he had nothing to say and sat silent for almost an hour after which he was dismissed. Not long after he received a discharge from the Marine Corps.

My experience with the Marines has been mixed. Some are the GungHo soldiers that the Corps wants to train. The phrase GungHo being a great compliment before its use was turned into a negative connotation by some. Personally I was proud anytime I was referred to as such (GungHo means hard working). Some of the Marines I have seen and/or worked with were just plain crap as were some soldiers from other Services. Quality seems to vary from unit to unit as many military organizations do. I have always attributed this to a unit’s leadership; I have noticed that good Marines (or soldiers of any branch) usually do not stay in poor units long. While some Marines spout enough rhetoric to be annoying at times, I have spent many hours with others that are not only good soldiers but also top-notch men. I respect the Marine Corps and the men who have chosen to serve with the Marine Corps as I respect any other soldiers. I would suggest that those whom generally find the Marines unworthy of standing behind give standing in front of them a try. Doing that for awhile would offer you (as men) a new insight into what being a Marine (or soldier) is about.

(Edit: to add I can not recall if the Doctor referred to above was a Marine or a naval officer).

[Fusilier9]

“Now, why don't you stop coming on here and attacking the Marine Corps and me?”

This whole thing started because of the marginalization of the Army by the “few and the proud.”

The whole reason the Army's offensive was moved up a day is because the Marine's were moving a lot faster than they Army thought they would. And I know all about the Battle of 73-Easting. But that fact remains, the Marine's mission was to recapture Kuwait and Kuwait City. They succeeded. The Army's mission was to destroy the Repulican Guard, which they did not do.”

Civdiv: Let’s examine this in a bit more detail. The main offensive in Desert Storm was to come from the west by the US Army’s VII Corps. The Iraqis expected a thrust directly north to Kuwait City. So, the intent of the Coalition was to feint with the marines and other allied forces while the VII Corps swung around and struck the Republican Guard. Remember those marines floating about in the Gulf to draw attention away from the main effort?

Also, don’t forget that the 2nd Brigade of the 2nd Armored Division was attached to the marines to give them some extra punch. They were the lead unit that advanced north to Kuwait City. Marine units weren’t attached to Army formations. Why was it necessary to bolster up the marines? Simply, because they lacked the tanks and mechanized power of the Army divisions.

“Also note that the previous Commandant, for the first time in history, was asked to stay on and become CINC-E, which has tradionally been an Army comand. That sure pissed the Army off. And then the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs becomes a Marine, for the first time in history.”

There is that complex raising its head again.

“And the pause in Iraq during the latest conflict was because the 3ID couldn't keep up. IMEF didn't want to stop, but CFLCC ordered the halt because 3ID needed to stop and rest and refit. And in regards to the Army travelling further than the Marines, that is bologny. Go look at the maps. 3ID went directly to An Nasiriya, and then button hooked to the west.”

3rd ID arrived at An Nasiriya first and then continued north after handing the northern bridge over to the marines.

“IMEF took Um Qusr and the penisula, and then moved north to An Nasiroya, and came into Baghdad from the east. And then they went all the way up and took Tikrit.”

You’re muddling up the campaign details. The marines were given two tasks. The first was to support the drive of the 3rd ID by maneuvering forces through An Nasiriya. The second was to clear the oil fields, the port at Um Qusr, and the seal off the Basra area. Different marine units undertook these separate missions. The marines arrived at Baghdad after the 3rd ID was already there. The marines did move north to Tikrit but that was afterwards.

“And again, I am NOT bashing the Army. As a Marine I have much more in common with an Army soldier than I do, even with our brothers in the British Royal Marines, who we have an EXTREMELY close relationship with.”

I’m not bashing the marines either. However, you have a need to argue the Army wasn’t avble to accomplish its missions. This is not based upon facts but your own desire to marginalize another military service to bolster the reputation of the Marine Corps. I assure you, your actions are not necessary. Every reasonable person respects the USMC and its achievements. I will never accuse the marines of not fulfilling their mission. Why are you so motivated?

“We do some thing better than you guys do. You guys do some things better than we do. We have seperate, but closely related missions.”

Wow! An admission that the Army can do some things well.

“But the fact remains, we are smaller, and we can be more selective, and we can be elite. While the Army has elite units, the Marine Corps is elite.”

This is a ridiculous generalization. True, the USMC is smaller and can be more selective. This is quite beneficial. What is the definition of an elite unit? I would say it’s the ability to function well in adverse conditions. This definition can’t be applied until a unit actually faces those challenges. A new marine private who is just assigned to his rifle company wouldn’t be considered elite just because he is in the USMC. Same holds for any new or unseasoned solider. However, a 20-year veteran senior NCO in the Army that has fought in Desert Storm and OIF would be considered elite because of his experiences and knowledge. Just because he is in the Army, his status doesn’t drop by your definition.

Bottom line is that each unit is different, USMC or Army. Training and preparation levels varies as do missions. The 3rd ID deserves the title of an elite unit because of its accomplishments during OIF.

“Finally all this inter-service rivalry is a good thing to some extent, it does allow members of a particular branch of the service to boast a little and have some fun at the others expense, but the truth of the matter is that the Marines and the Army are both very good at what they do (the Navy and the Air Force too)and it wouldn't hurt anyone on this board to admit that. BTW I've been in the Army going on 18 years and was in both Desert Storm and OIF, and am going back to Iraq next summer, so I do know that of which I speak.”

Splinty makes a good point. Every service member should be proud of his branch and his contribution to our nation. My sole complaint is that some marines feel the need to disparage the Army with falsehoods for some unknown reason.