Infantry needs a lot of work...

[flamingknives]

Originally posted by DzrtFox:

I'm not a software developer...

In that case would you mind keeping your own counsel about what is and is not simple to implement?

...and I didn't charge anyone for this mess.

While I might not agree with you, this is a valid statement as it is your opinion as an end user.

Telling someone how easy it is to do something when you know nothing about it really sticks in my craw.

[hammelman]

Is there a way to implement in the AI somewhere that the squad enters the closest entrance to the last waypoint it receives. For example i say Squad A, dismount and move to the south entrance of a building and instead of making complex calculations it just defaults to the nearest door? I know this sounds simple, but i understand its not as simple as it sounds.

[DzrtFox]

Flamingknives, it doesn't take a genius to figure out how to move something in a straight line on an x/y coordinate axis. If you'd like I'll be happy to show you the logic involved even though I lack the coding skills to make it a reality. If you go back and read my post I said it should be relatively easy to do this, considering they've already got coding to move units all over the place. There obviously must be some sort of design flaw that this is still such a big problem after this many major patches.

I come to these forums to try and discuss problems I see and help improve the game, so I will present whatever counsel I feel like here as long as I do it in an intelligent and polite manner. Why don't you try explaining to me why this problem happened rather than trying to police my comments?

I don't see how you can't agree with my second statement as to not charging anyone for this mess. I haven't made a dime off this game and I paid $50 before the game was even released on the faith that BFC would release a quality product. Here we are a year later and infantry squads can't even follow a straight line FIVE FEET AWAY.

And this is only one problem I've had with infantry out of a TON. Go back and read this thread too. You think I'm the only one experiencing this?

[hammelman]

This thread should be called, Flame Wars need a lot of work....

[flamingknives]

DzrtFox, you ask for politeness, so I think that you should take a look at your posts.

"It doesn't take a genius" So what are BFC then? A bunch of morons? They're doing it to piss you off on purpose so you would growl and show your teeth?

The polite way to raise it would be to ask the question rather than state your view as if it were the god-given truth. Drawing a line between two points is easy. But creating movement paths on a dynamic terrain is not the same as drawing a line between two points. How many parameters do you consider whilst simply route-finding across a room? I think that you'll find that it's quite complicated, and that's without having to counter with eight other people waving guns around, vehicles getting in the way and possibly reversing.

It isn't ideal, and you can make that point. I have no issue with that. It is one hell of a lot more complicated than drawing a line between two points.

So instructing BFC on what to do based on your probably flawed apprehension of how the game works is neither polite not intelligent.

BFC are still working on it, which is a damn sight more than most game developers do for your $50. What's $50 anyway? I've spent more on watching crap films or eating bad food.

[Battlefront.com]

Flamingknives,

So instructing BFC on what to do based on your probably flawed apprehension of how the game works is neither polite not intelligent.

I do wish everybody have the same definition of "polite" as you do, but clearly that won't happen. At least, however, DzrtFox is citing something specific instead of slagging off without focus.

DzrtFox,

Flamingknives, it doesn't take a genius to figure out how to move something in a straight line on an x/y coordinate axis.

Ask yourself then... if it is so simple, then why did the unit not do what you expected? Because Charles is incompetent and can't figure out how to do a short straight line calculation? I mean... c'mon... you really expect me to take such an assertion seriously?

Now, I'm not saying that you didn't see something that doesn't make sense. What I'm saying is that it should be obvious, even to you, that there must be some other factor that caused this problem. If you aren't interested in being open to the possibility that there is, then I don't see what the point of discussing it with you further is because I know for sure that your take on the issue so far isn't relevant.

Without screenshots, without saves, and without a more informed description there isn't much I can do. Based on the description you did give, I'd say that the placement of the Stryker had a lot to do with what happened. But based on some ASCII text, I can't say that it was for sure the problem.

And this is only one problem I've had with infantry out of a TON. Go back and read this thread too

The vast majority of this thread is filled with uninformed, insulting posts that don't speak of anything specific. I'm sorry anybody has had to read it once, not to mention go back over it a second time

Pandur,

a situation i had 2 days ago. is it possible to "blast" from a story higher than the ground floor into a adjacent house, to the same floor?

only time i tired it they did ran down the stairs and tried to go into the adjacent house through the door.

Interesting. I'll see if some testers can reproduce this. However, I'm pretty sure Charles fixed a problem like this after v1.08 was released.

Red Stream,

Will the "face" command work consistently for infantry in WEGO in the upcoming patch (1.01?)?

Hmmm... I'm not sure how to answer this one. Personally I'm not aware of a problem like this, but I might have missed a tester report it. I'll ask about this one as well.

Steve

[DzrtFox]

First off, the genius comment was directed at you, flamingknives, not BFC. (Edit: I mean it was directed at you to prove a point, not to say anything about your intelligence.)

I fully realize that there is WAY more involved than just computing a straight line between A&B here. But this took place on flat terrain and I was asking a squad to move in a direct straight line maybe five feet and there was no incoming fire of any sort. I used the term RELATIVELY simple because I'm sure computing movement paths through mountainous terrain around obstacles under fire is CONSIDERABLY more difficult than plotting a short straight infantry path with no obstacles. Note I didn't say "This is a simple fix so do it." I said this SHOULD be a RELATIVELY simple calculation and for some reason you've taken that as some sort of insult at BFC. I wasn't instructing them in anything as you claim.

Steve:

Ask yourself then... if it is so simple, then why did the unit not do what you expected? Because Charles is incompetent and can't figure out how to do a short straight line calculation? I mean... c'mon... you really expect me to take such an assertion seriously?

I was in no way at all trying to imply that Charles is incompetent. In fact he is clearly extremely competent, which is why it baffles me why such a seemingly simple yet gamebreaking problem still remains. I have no idea why the unit didn't do what I expected. That's what I was hoping you guys would/could figure out. But the problem is that you don't seem to believe that there's really a problem so I'm guessing it's not going to get figured out.

Now, I'm not saying that you didn't see something that doesn't make sense. What I'm saying is that it should be obvious, even to you, that there must be some other factor that caused this problem. If you aren't interested in being open to the possibility that there is, then I don't see what the point of discussing it with you further is because I know for sure that your take on the issue so far isn't relevant.

It is plainly obvious to me that there was some other factor involved. The problem is that I see this ALL THE TIME. Maybe not in every battle but I see it way too often, and it almost always winds up in dead units and extreme frustration during a good battle. So what is this mystery factor that causes this to creep up all the time? In this latest example I know for a fact that there was plenty of clearance between the Stryker and the door, it was flat level terrain, I had no incoming fire, and it was a direct straight move. Whatever factor caused that is something that isn't displaying in the game.

I have no idea what you mean that my take on the issue isn't relevant. This is clearly a huge problem that is on-topic and I believe I explained the problem I had as clearly as I could without having a screenshot.

My frustration in this thread comes from one of your original posts that infantry behavior is very good and just needs some minor tweaks. If there is a "minor tweak" that is going to fix this issue, then please put it at the top of your list of tweaks.

[ May 23, 2008, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: DzrtFox ]

[ChrisND]

While we are discussing infantry, are they supposed to be able to shoot up and down 6 stories of building? I have a scenario where US forces forces start on the roof of a six story building, and Syrian forces start on the bottom. There are no windows in the building, and yet at game start they immediately start shooting each other. I can supply the game file if needed.

[DzrtFox]

Here's another perfect example...

I've got an infantry squad on the ground floor of a lone 3-story building... completely stationary and no incoming fire. I give them a Quick order move up to the 2nd floor and what do they do?

The entire squad runs OUTSIDE the building into a patch of trees and just sits there for a second. As they're turning around to run back inside they come under intense fire and I lose every single man in the squad except one. The lone wolf runs back inside and successfully makes it up to the 2nd floor. All this from one short Quick movement order between floors of the SAME BUILDING.

I know that I can't be the only person experiencing this kind of thing.

[Battlefront.com]

DzrtFox,

I have no idea what you mean that my take on the issue isn't relevant. This is clearly a huge problem that is on-topic and I believe I explained the problem I had as clearly as I could without having a screenshot.

I'll come at it again a different way. Descriptions are often not useful, as a general rule, because it is often the little stuff that someone doesn't mention that turn out to be critical. Or it's an issue that has nothing directly to do with what the person is describing, much like an EMT saying "this person died of an apparent heart attack" only to find out it was the spouse who put strychnine in his soup that really caused death. The EMT isn't going to know that, which is why EMT's don't write up the cause of death. The medical examiner does. But with no body to examine, it's very difficult to know if it was a heart attack, poison, or what.

My frustration in this thread comes from one of your original posts that infantry behavior is very good and just needs some minor tweaks. If there is a "minor tweak" that is going to fix this issue, then please put it at the top of your list of tweaks.

Infantry behavior is overall very good. How can I say that? Because I've seen it go from a design on paper to the way it is today. The game as it is today isn't perfect, so by definition it has some problems. I've acknowledged that time and time again and vowed that we will continue to address these issues. I've also said, several times now, that what our testers are playing with TODAY is quite a bit improved over what you're playing. So yeah... the remaining issues are minor and they are at the top of our priority list.

What I find puzzling is that some people experience problems a LOT, others hardly at all. It's been like that even before the game was released. Some of it can be explained away once the problem is uncovered because it's clear that play style has some bearing on it. I dunno... perhaps that's partly what's going on here with you. All I know is that our testers are CONSTANTLY hammering the game and whenever they find something we fix it. And trust me... they are NOT shy about reporting problems

I'm going to guess that the door problem you saw in your latest example is fixed. I can't say for sure about the previous one (the Stryker in the street one), but it is also possible that is fixed too. Again, without seeing a save it's really impossible for me to say for sure.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Also keep in mind what I said back on Page 2 of this thread. There are a bunch of people complaining about a bunch of different things for a bunch of different reasons. Some of the complaints stem from "user error", others are legitimate issues. The less specific people are and the more hyperbole they use, the more impossible it is for us to do anything about it. The best way to get things fixed is to state the issues clearly and as clinically as possible, preferably with save game files. Failing that, screen shots can help sometimes. Failing that, a description will just have to do. The better the communications from the customer, the better our ability to respond to it in a positive way.

Steve

[DzrtFox]

First off, I want to apologize to Steve and flamingknives if I was rude earlier and didn't express myself clearly. It's been a long week and I just woke up on the wrong side of the bed today.

Steve I have tried to express these problems as concisely as I can. The problem is that by the time the problem happens it is too late to get a screenshot or a save game. I mostly play real-time and without a replay feature there is nothing I can do to get you a screenshot or a useful save file. I do take close mental note of the situation and any anomalies that might have caused it when I see it. Believe me, I've seen other oddities in the game that I've never reported on here because I could see why it happened under the specific circumstances.

This problem I just can't figure out. It seems to me that with the frequency it's happened to me, SOMEWHERE it's had to have turned up in testing.

I know what you mean about some people always seeming to experience more problems than others. I work in I.T. so I deal with that every day. I don't like being the person right now who seems to be having a lot of problems, but I can assure you that I have no business here other than to improve the game.

[DzrtFox]

Also I should add that I suppose I agree that overall, the infantry model is very good. It's just that when my infantry gets killed every few games because of some goofy AI thing it overshadows the overall amazing achievement that ya'll have made.

[DzrtFox]

OK here's another example that I see almost every game it seems... I just finished a game and was able to capture a screenshot in time.

I've ordered this squad to quick move to floor 1 of the building whose door is marked by the cursor. Rather than running directly into that building, they enter the first building, run to the roof, run across the roof (exposing them to fire) then down into floor 1.

[Plugger]

Goodaye,

I'd like to second the fault mentioned above. It also regularly pops up in my games as well. It seems to be specific to the 'quick move' command and I suppose the AI figures the quickest route which is what you've asked for.

While it may be the quickest route it isn't necessarily the smartest one. Hence the apparent frustration when your squad gets hammered unnecessarily.

How you'd fix this is beyond me but perhaps you could throw into the move algorithim some sort of 'exposure' calculation and get the AI to select from the best combination of 'fast' and 'minimal exposure'. Just a thought.

Cheers,

Plugger

[Battlefront.com]

DzrtFox,

First off, I want to apologize to Steve and flamingknives if I was rude earlier and didn't express myself clearly. It's been a long week and I just woke up on the wrong side of the bed today.

Anybody can have a bad day, so no worries there. There's a big difference between someone having an off day and someone having an off life Thanks for taking a deep breath and starting in again. It's how things should work if people really want to be helped.

Also I should add that I suppose I agree that overall, the infantry model is very good. It's just that when my infantry gets killed every few games because of some goofy AI thing it overshadows the overall amazing achievement that ya'll have made.

Believe me, I completely understand your frustration. It's one of the really bad things about making a complex environment like CM (CMx1 or CMx2). To make the simulation realistic we have to do a lot of complex programming and offer a ton of variables. While this does indeed increase the quality and depth of the simulation, it also increases the chances of something going wrong. The problem with that is when things go wrong it undermines all the times it goes right. In other words, the player expects perfection because the environment is so engaging, but the engaging environment reduces the chance of perfect responses. As I said, it's a bad situation for us all

But that doesn't mean we can't reduce the chances of disappointment at the stage we're at now. Quite the contrary, now is the time when we're able to identify and tackle the last few remaining big issues effectively.

I've ordered this squad to quick move to floor 1 of the building whose door is marked by the cursor. Rather than running directly into that building, they enter the first building, run to the roof, run across the roof (exposing them to fire) then down into floor 1.

The screenshot helps a lot. This is almost certainly related to a behavior unique to Squads. What happens is the TacAI is, quite rightly, trying to keep your guys from getting too bunched up. In open terrain the code handles things in a way that the player finds acceptable. In dense terrain (especially with buildings) this can result in suboptimal behavior because multiple paths are harder to find.

In v1.08 the TacAI is still erring on the side of using more paths so it can keep a Squad spread out as best as possible. In the current development build that isn't the case. The way the code is now the Squads tend to play "follow the leader" when the Waypoints are near buildings. This new behavior means that Team A goes through the optimal door, followed by Team B, followed by Team C. This is instead of the way it works now where Team A goes through the optimal door and Teams B and C think that going a different route, even if it's not very good, is the way to go.

This means that this specific problem you've pointed to here (and Pandur described on Page 2) should be fixed with the next release version.

As I said, when we have a specific instance to look at we can generally figure out a way to fix things. Therefore, feedback like what you just gave me (screenshot + description) is helpful. As it turns out we've already fixed this one because of feedback from others (especially one particular tester).

The thing about this particular problem is that it manifests itself in different ways depending on the terrain. This leads people to think there are more problems than are actually there. That's what I meant when I said we're in the tweaking stage with this stuff

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Plugger,

Seems you posted when I posted. I think I've got your question covered

Steve

[DzrtFox]

Thanks for taking the time to respond and explain everything, Steve. I have renewed confidence that these problems will be ironed out in time and aren't as serious (relatively speaking) as they seem.

In the meantime, I'm going to continue to be a pain in your arse with any funky-looking screenshots!

[ChrisND]

Originally posted by Normal Dude:

While we are discussing infantry, are they supposed to be able to shoot up and down 6 stories of building? I have a scenario where US forces forces start on the roof of a six story building, and Syrian forces start on the bottom. There are no windows in the building, and yet at game start they immediately start shooting each other. I can supply the game file if needed.

Bump in case it did not get noticed.. I seem to remember a patch addressing this, but I have encountered it again.

[El Hombre]

NormalDude,

I have a scenario where US forces forces start on the roof of a six story building, and Syrian forces start on the bottom. There are no windows in the building, and yet at game start they immediately start shooting each other.

I'm not in any way affiliated with BFC but I could easily explain this with a single word: staircase.

The way they model things probably assumes there are many different types of buildings, some of them having open central staircases that are really good for lobbing grenades...

[Pandur]

didnt 1.07 or 1.08 fix the shooting through whole houses thingy!? hm, i look up the release notes a moment...

yes here it is.

"LOS through two or more floors within the same building is blocked."

means also if they can shoot each other, they should not get to see each others in the first place.

[Battlefront.com]

DzrtFox,

Thanks! People posting legitimate, specific concerns in a polite and constructive way (even if expressing frustration, disappointment, etc.) are never a pain in the ass. The others aren't necessarily a pain in the ass either, but they certainly aren't helpful. Thanks for making sure you are the former type and not the latter

NormalDude,

Yeah, that shouldn't be a problem any more. Sounds like you're sure you saw it with v1.08 so we'll look into it and see what's up with that. Obviously what you saw shouldn't have happened.

Steve

[SlapHappy]

Steve

As it stands right now, are you planning on adding any infantry-type movement orders other than the existing "hunt" "assault" types as development moves into the CM:Normandy game? Would it be possible some other tactical options will show up in the WWII game?

[Other Means]

Originally posted by SlapHappy:

Steve

As it stands right now, are you planning on adding any infantry-type movement orders other than the existing "hunt" "assault" types as development moves into the CM:Normandy game? Would it be possible some other tactical options will show up in the WWII game?

What options are you thinking of?

[Battlefront.com]

We are going to take a fresh look at the Commands and assess if change is needed. But I think if we make changes it will be within the context of what we already have. In other words, I don't think we'll be introducing entirely new Commands and keep all the existing ones as is. Too many Commands choices can be a problem in and of itself.

Steve