Syrian AA capabilities?

[Lee_DiSantis]

All good points.

Imagine being in static defensive positions and having 40 JDAMs dropped on you! Ouch! :eek:

[Homo ferricus]

If this Absurdistan that you speak of was largely made up of forest/Jungle and mountain terrain, there could definetly be a chance to defend from choppers via easily concealed and deployed hand held AA weapons like the grail, i once saw a video of some sort of Arab rebels(unidentified) shoot down a seemingly Russian(also unidentified) Hind with a shoulder launched SAM from the jungle. Against fixed wing aircraft would be tricky; i suppose you can hide some larger SAM platforms under the jungle canopy or up in the mountains(if they can access such terrain) but it IS possible to give any Air Force hell in the right environment with the right equipment. Although i suppose that modern/near future systems will be able to spot and kill these AA platforms even under jungle canopy, or when hidden in the mountains, unless SF teams are deployed to kill them first. Meh, i still think it's possible.

but if i was czar of Adsurdistan i would make sure to be on America's and Europe's good sides.

[John Kettler]

Hate to break it to you but the S-300 series system

(ASCC designation SA-10 GRUMBLE) is perfectly capable of eating both high flying B-52s and low flying TLAMs for lunch, along with SR-71s for dessert. It is NOT to be trifled with and would probably require a large scale, coordinated effort to defeat it, likely involving maneuvering decoys,

jamming, saturation tactics and precision strike.

Not sure how it might fare vs. MLRS PGW coming screaming down from ~70,000 foot apogee, as have no idea what the RCS is.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Peter Cairns]

Syria don't have SA-10's so that's hardly an issue, biggest thing they seem to have are SAM-9 Gaskins.

This might be interesting. Syrian SAM sites

Peter.

[John Kettler]

Peter Cairns,

The S-300 has repeatedly been on the Syrian shopping list. If they don't have it already, they could within days if the need arose.

As for your SAM site link, how do I see the list, since I'm apparently experiencing some sort of brain lock?

Lee_DiSantis,

The information I have is that the F-117 was downed by an SA-3, not an SA-6. Believe the major cause was the same stupidity that cost us most of the 15 B-52s lost in Linebacker II over North Vietnam: using the same ingress route over and over again.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Iron_man:

i once saw a video of some sort of Arab rebels(unidentified) shoot down a seemingly Russian(also unidentified) Hind with a shoulder launched SAM from the jungle.

It might have been a video of Afghan fighters from 1980's, but then Afghans aren't Arabs (although there were volunteers) and there's no jungles there. Actually, there are no jungles anywhere in the Middle East or North Africa where Arabs live.

[Lee_DiSantis]

The information I have is that the F-117 was downed by an SA-3, not an SA-6. Believe the major cause was the same stupidity that cost us most of the 15 B-52s lost in Linebacker II over North Vietnam: using the same ingress route over and over again.

Wow, SA-3...even sadder. I had heard the tidbit of using the same ingress routes nightly, but it begs the question: how did they know the ingress routes at all? It seems clear to me they were consistently painting the F-117 on radar. That is probably a big part of the reason that they are being retired right now; they just aren't really that stealthy. I mean, an SA-3? Come on.

I don't know if anyone's seen this article, but it's pretty interesting:

debkafile

[Lee_DiSantis]

Also, on the topic of S-300s (SA-10s)...Syria has repeatedly attempted to purchase these systems, but was refused by Moscow for a number of reasons. They were also refused the shoulder-launched version of the Igla (SA-18), and apparently had to settle for an APC-mounted version. This was due to pressure from Washington over fears that shoulder mounted Iglas could easily fall into the hands of Iraqi insurgents, or Hezbollah.

[Sergei]

This might be interesting re: F-117. Apparently there's a 16 page report that may be requested from the author.

http://www2.arnes.si/~lgrego7/f117-abstract.htm

[Beastttt]

I got to say all the answers given were better than mine

consider any counter battery unit will be able to see the signal coming from the wrong direction and act accordingly

also figuring the attacker at 10,000' has already locked on to his target at 2000' and traveling around 500+mph how much target devation do think will happen in under 3 seconds(733.3'per second at 500mph)I would figure that the logic circuits would ignore any major jump in signal devation and remember the last location like a HARM

Originally posted by Peter Cairns:

Beastttt,

Out of curiosity how does a plane at 10,000ft know that the GPS bomb it's just dropped is going to be jammed at below 2,000ft.

And exactly what artillery is going to be used o fire accurately deep inside Syrian, that doesn't itself use GPS to aid terminal guidance.

Peter.

[Peter Cairns]

What you need to deal with B-52's is something that as far as I know no one makes, a sort of SAM/Javelin that uses a fire and forget discriminating seeker without radar.

As far as I know there isn't an IR SAM effective above about 15,000ft, so what you need is a IR/thermal visual ground tracking system that is passive, that can fire a long range SAM in the direction of a B-52, which will then tutn on it's shrouded seeker at above 35,000ft.

But as no one but the US has B-52's and no one won't to take them on there isn't much of a market for such a system.

Peter.

[John Kettler]

Peter Cairns,

SOFAIK, the only known causes of the 15 B-52 combat losses (other than two that midaired in the early days of ARC LIGHT strikes) are SA-2s over North Vietnam, with the SA-2s fired mostly in radar commanded mode and, late in Linebacker II, under optical guidance mode because of heavy jamming and strong Wild Weasel presence.

http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avb52_2.html

Virtually every Soviet/Warsaw Pact/Russian radar guided SAM (not sure about SA-1 and SA-5) has some sort of TV or other passive tracking mode which does not require using the missile tracking radar. These include the SA-2, SA-3, SA-4, and SA-8, as well as the SA-10, 11, and 12. Am unsure regarding the 2S6 Tunguska hybrid SAM/AA system. The IR guided SA-9 uses passive RF cueing and optical aiming; the IR guided SA-13 uses the same passive cueing scheme and has a range only radar for establishing target's in missile engagement zone as an assist to optical aiming.

There's nothing magic about engaging the B-52 per se, especially in a CAVU environment, and it gets even easier if you consider passive IR tracking, rather than TV, seeing as how the B-52's got to be one of the biggest IR emitters out there, with eight unshielded jet engines. Offsetting this, the B-52 carries tons of jamming gear and boatloads of chaff and flares.

It comes down to how good our SEAD campaign is,

how clever the Syrians are at hiding and husbanding B-52 capable SAM systems, and how we use the B-52s with regard to targets hit, ordnance employed, and especially flight profiles. If the SA-5 sites still work, I'd imagine they would be high priority targets early on. Israel deemed them to be strategic threats when they were built because they had enough reach to shoot down planes well over the Mediterranean Sea. ISTR the sites were at Homs and Damascus.

Lee_DiSantis,

Thanks for the clarification on the S-300(insert additional alphabet soup here). How I miss the Cold War ASCC system of Soviet/Warsaw Pact designators. Knew that stuff cold, but never really grokked the new one, so tend to flounder a bit.

I can well understand State's having heartburn over SA-18s, although if you look at Stich's UNFRIENDLY SKIES you'll see no one in the government seemed to care about an opportunity to buy back 50 Stingers from the Muj (FBI was hunting for Stinger parts after TWA 800 went down, though), but as I've noted before in this Forum, Syria is part of a new alliance with Russia, China, India, and Venezuela. As such, if the need arises, all sorts of unpleasantness could be added to the OOB within days. Russia will not sit idle, IMO, if the U.S. moves against Syria, a key regional ally since the Soviet days.

Regards,

John Kettler

[ May 18, 2006, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[Homo ferricus]

Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Iron_man:

i once saw a video of some sort of Arab rebels(unidentified) shoot down a seemingly Russian(also unidentified) Hind with a shoulder launched SAM from the jungle.

It might have been a video of Afghan fighters from 1980's, but then Afghans aren't Arabs (although there were volunteers) and there's no jungles there. Actually, there are no jungles anywhere in the Middle East or North Africa where Arabs live. </font>

[John Kettler]

Iron_man,

I've seen some Chechen guerilla footage posted to the Net, and it matches what you report seeing, complete with densely wooded forest. Believe it was the Chechens that shot down the Russian heavy lift helo which replaced the Mi-6 HOOK, killing well over a hundred in one go.

Regards,

John Kettler

[undead reindeer cavalry]

i thought the latest Syrian deal with Russians finally included S-300, but perhaps i am mistaken. those Syrian Russian deals are so fuzzy because it's mostly politics. though S-300 is a strategic asset so i don't think it matters for CMSF.

i would rate Chechens over Syrians, except for Syrian special forces. there's quite a difference in military culture. not that it takes that much skill to use AA missiles, even if some fail in that task.

i guess you are talking about this video?

[John Kettler]

undead reindeer cavalry,

That was interesting, but the one I saw was much more in your face, since it showed Chechen guerillas prepping for an attack, marching into ambush positions, lying in wait, then ambushing a Russian supply column on a narrow road through the forest. Action was up close and brutal. The helo downed in the link you so kindly provided looked to me like a Mi-24 HIND D or later, rather than a big transport helo, like the Mi-26 HALO, which is the one I was thinking of earlier. Here's the Wiki description of the bloody shootdown in question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-26

Note that the HALO has six rotor blades, whereas the HIND has five.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Homo ferricus]

Originally posted by undead reindeer cavalry:

i thought the latest Syrian deal with Russians finally included S-300, but perhaps i am mistaken. those Syrian Russian deals are so fuzzy because it's mostly politics. though S-300 is a strategic asset so i don't think it matters for CMSF.

i would rate Chechens over Syrians, except for Syrian special forces. there's quite a difference in military culture. not that it takes that much skill to use AA missiles, even if some fail in that task.

i guess you are talking about this video?

yep, complete with Beautiful scenery and a whole host of Allah Ackbars.

[moneymaxx]

A 3:29 min video about the s300, the last 40sec show it in use (in russian).

Yahoo video S300

[John Kettler]

moneymaxx,

Back when I was in military aerospace, people died for the equivalent of a few frames from that video.

Amazing stuff which really takes me back, but to see what we had engineering conjecture about being launched is even more amazing! That HAWKlike tracked SAM early on is an SA-11 (under ASCC designation) and that's the first footage I've seen of one. Looks there was an SA-12 there, and the whole set of S-300 system models was pretty cool. I even managed to remember the designators for several of the radars.

Is it my rig, or was the video pretty blurry? Regardless, that was a treat! Thanks!

Regards,

John Kettler

[moneymaxx]

I'am glad you liked it. I didn't know that those pictures were rare and even wondered if I should post it or not .

BTW, the quality is low because it's streaming video, like this one.

YouTube s300

[moneymaxx]

Some more videos, I like the one of the tunguska-m.

www.aviation.ru/www.rusarm.ru/video/

[hoolaman]

thanks for posting moneymaxx! Some nice vids there. The mission impossible theme is a nice touch too...

[John Kettler]

moneymaxx,

Though I left military aerospace in mid 1989, it's still kind of hard to get my ahead around better data being available in open source than I had back then with clearances. It's a hoot, though, to see on public display what I had line drawings of at the time. Would love to go to one of those big international armament shows and see those items up close! Appreciate the videos!

Regards,

John Kettler