Holo Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 I am wondering what penetration tables, accuracy tables and armour protection levels are used for CM:SF? The reason I ask this is while playing CM:BB and CM:AK I was on more than one occasion puzzled with data given there, not to mention the changing stats from game to game for the same weapon type - for instance, ELITE King Tiger targeting T-34/85 at 1000m frontally on all flat, prop free terrain, gives only 57% hit chance, which is very different from data that states King Tigers performance at 100% practice, 85% combat hit chance with PzGr. 39/43 (Jentz, Thomas L.); the same is with penetration of 88mm KwK 43 L/71 at 1000m (30 degrees from vertical) – CM:BB – 146; CM:AK – 159; Jentz, Chamberlain, Doyle – 165. Now, WWII happened a long time ago, and although, obviously, there is a lot of difference from source to source, it is hardly that any data on this matter is classified, as opposed to current systems, where all that can be found on net are various estimates. Therefore, for example, when looking for stats of modern mbts on net, you can come up with something like this: M1A2 SEP Turret Front: 940-960 RHAe against APFSDS; 1320-1620 against HEAT Glacis: 560-590 RHAe against APFSDS; 510-1050 against HEAT Lower Hull Front - 580-650 RHAe against APFSDS; 800-970 against HEAT Also you can find this, concerning Kornet-E ATGM (www.army-technology.com): "Armour penetration for the HEAT warhead is stated to be 1,200mm. Range is 5km." So, at least in theory, this two sums up to conclusion that from range of 3-4km Syrian soldier equipped with Kornet-E fires a missile, it hits lower hull front and penetrates Abrams. Hmmm....is this really possible? What the CM:SF outcome would be? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassh Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 As a former employee of NRI who managed the publication www.army-technology.com for four years I can tell you the info there is only as good as the manufacturers supplied us, or our journalists could come up with from what ever their sources they had - i.e. it is not 100% accurate by any means. For more accurate data try Janes info group. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 We are going to have to fudge some stuff, for sure. However, the info out there is generally pretty good. One thing that is somewhat beneficial to us is the fact that most stuff out there tends to either penetrate or not. This is quite different than WWII where there were a LOT of marginal matchups where if the angle was juuuuuuust right, or the range juuuuust short enough, a penetration would happen that otherwise had no chance. Now a days if an RPG-7V round of x type hits you on the side of y vehicle you are pretty much assured of only one result. Obviously it isn't THAT simplistic, just saying that in a way ballistics modeling doesn't require the same level of data accuracy that was a must have for WWII stuff. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellfish Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 There's always a certain fudge factor with weapons too. Defects in the warhead, deflection, etc. Even though a Kornet is rated at 1200mm of RHA penetration, it might not always penetrate that lower hull even if it hits dead on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Whoa!! I'm not a Kornet gunner or anything, BUT... How the hell does someone aim at a specific spot on a target vehicle at 5 kilometers? What, does each launcher have a Hubble sized telescope? Or, do they run a high-fidelity video link back from the seeker to the launcher? Thanks, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holo Posted August 17, 2006 Author Share Posted August 17, 2006 I have no idea if it's really possible to hit ANYTHING 5km away with any ATGM, especially in war conditions, let alone specifically lower hull front, although I presume that 2-3km may give results, but the real question was if hit there what would happen in the game, in the light of estimates, manufecturer's specifications, and recent performance in Lebanon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Pilot Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Originally posted by cassh: As a former employee of NRI who managed the publication www.army-technology.com for four years I can tell you the info there is only as good as the manufacturers supplied us, or our journalists could come up with from what ever their sources they had - i.e. it is not 100% accurate by any means. For more accurate data try Janes info group. Just curious - what makes you say the people at Janes could get their hands on more accurate information than your people could? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cassh Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 Because I know where our guys got their info from, and I know where Jane's can get some of their stuff from - and theirs tends to be more "sensitive" so to speak. Our senior journos were former Jane's staffers, so it's quite incestuous but Jane's have much more juice within the right circles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted August 17, 2006 Share Posted August 17, 2006 re: Jane's. Well, I was in a room for of US Army Colonels, Majors, Captains, and experienced civilian contractors one time and there was a brief discussion about us using classified info. A couple of the Colonels said "the public domain stuff is just about right anway, so why bother going through all the cloak and dagger stuff?". Mumbles of agreement and the issue was pretty much dropped Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperial Grunt Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 Originally posted by Holo: I have no idea if it's really possible to hit ANYTHING 5km away with any ATGM, especially in war conditions, let alone specifically lower hull front, although I presume that 2-3km may give results, but the real question was if hit there what would happen in the game, in the light of estimates, manufecturer's specifications, and recent performance in Lebanon. With thermal sights and a good target profile, its easy. As long as you are sure that the thermal signature is the enemy. The Javelin, 1990's tech, locks onto the thermal signature of the target and tracks that. The missile will go and kill as far out as its rocket motor will send it downrange. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 To echo Imperial Grun's comments... I have some experience with Javelins. Even got to see one scatter a T-72 all over Redstone's nicely mowed backyard One of the things that I was impressed with most was the max range. The original screen resolution was the limiting factor, which has recently been upgraded. IIRC the minimum range is somewhere around 4k now. However, I've been told that a good gunner, in good conditions, with a bit of luck, can hit things out "much farther". So I asked, how much farther? "As far as the missile can go". How far is that? "far". How far is far? "further than the stated max range". hehe... I love having conversations with people that know a lot more than they can say Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudel.dietrich Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 Is any version of the Javelin top attack capable? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 Originally posted by rudel.dietrich: Is any version of the Javelin top attack capable? All of them. It's kind of its defining characteristic. Can be used direct as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 Top Attack is the default mode. In real life Direct Attack is possible if manually selected. In CM:SF that decision is made by the TacAI based on conditions. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holo Posted August 18, 2006 Author Share Posted August 18, 2006 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: To echo Imperial Grun's comments... However, I've been told that a good gunner, in good conditions, with a bit of luck, can hit things out "much farther". So I asked, how much farther? "As far as the missile can go". How far is that? "far". How far is far? "further than the stated max range". hehe... I love having conversations with people that know a lot more than they can say Steve It seems to me that situation with MBTs and ATGMs is developing in direction where later are becoming more of the threat than oposing MBTs. Especially in "not so flat and open" terrains. Ooooh, I can see them clearly flying all over the battlefield in CM:SF, just blasting away everything that moves. :cool: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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