Cowering in the trenches

[Childress]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Brad drives 10 feet away from a whole platoon in prepared cover, only needs to hold the trigger down for 3 minutes to kill them all, is tactical nonsense.

Is it, really? In a real battle the Syrians would have surrendered long before the trigger stage. So, given that surrender isn't an option, currently...

[JasonC]

You are really being dense on this one.

In the game mechanics, an entire unit of men is tied to one action spot. This corresponds in reality to precisely nothing, on this scale and issue.

In the game mechanics, all trenches are V bottomed shallow ditches with 45 degree sides, with practically no protection from a typical mortar round, and none from any weapon firing from 1 meter higher than the surrounding landscape. This corresponds in reality to precisely nothing, nobody fights from such things.

In reality, infantry are scattered in deployment, not clumped into neat killable packages. They also move, not in neat killable little packages but individually. They also actively seek cover and avoid spotting and fire, not as packages but as individuals.

In reality, infantry field fortifications are not marked on the attacker's map at set up.

In reality, infantry field fortifications have vertical sides, not sides set at 45 degree angles to allow maximum fire down into them from nearby.

In reality, infantry field fortifications are deliberately made narrow, not wide funnels collecting incoming rounds and nearby LOS, to make anything but a narrow and directly vertical hit, completely ineffective against men sheltering below the ground surface inside them.

In reality, single AFVs driving up to platoons of entrenched infantry have no idea where the field fortifications are, have no idea where men are in any of them or not, can't see below ground level no matter how close they drive to those fortifications, can't deduce that there is anyone else nearby if they do get a glimpse of one enemy gophering to fire, and can't see any of them that choose to remain below ground level.

That is sort of why infantry fighting vehicles carry infantry inside, and armies bother to have them, instead of consisting of 100% main battle tanks.

[JasonC]

In a real battle the numbskull trying to order the war would be impeached, so no, Syrians wouldn't be surrendering to a Brad that isn't there.

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[Fat Dave]

Hello again,

I have just read Jason's post on trenches and if they are modelled directly after what a trench would be in 'real-life', then yes, I would have to agree that the level of protection offered by them in their current form needs some serious adjustment.

Instead of thinking of them as 'real' trenches, it helps my immersion in the game if I see them currently as hasty fighting positions, shell scrapes - a hole dug quickly to provide the bare minimal cover - and nothing more. If I didn't, then yes, I would be slightly concerned

Sure, these hasty fighting positions certainly don't give much protection from any form of artillery barrage, but again, they are better than nothing.

Regarding the seemingly excessive cowering of all 9 men when they take (what I believe to be minimal fire) does cause the hands to go the head, followed by screaming, cursing and a general increase in blood pressure. I guess I'm having difficulties imagining all 9 vets hugging dirt when there is danger close while they are in 'technically' better positions of cover.

Thomm, I had a chance to run a few games set with a clear night sky. I can't say I noticed any marked improvement in my Syrian night spotting ability. I know it isn't very scientific but I still found I couldn't rely on my veteran 9 guys - despite taking sporadic small arms fire - to sit up and take notice when the small numbers of dismounted units (or surviving crew members) were approaching. At night these milita/regular Syrian units couldn't find their own asses with both hands

Anyway, as long as it's not at night, I am having a lot of fun trying to design some sort of successful Syrian defensive set-up which can take a short medium prep artillery barrage and then a full blooded Cavalry charge. Should trenches be improved over time, this would only make this scenario even more exciting.

David

[Taki]

Tactical Nonsense is that you cant retreat units that well. Even in Darkness a Bradley could kill most of 4-5 Men of a Squad that is fleeing in all Directions away from the Bradley. Game is to static. There isnt good Retreat Funktion in the Game.

[Fat Dave]

Hi Taki,

I do agree about the difficulty in withdrawing/retreating men. I liked the ability in CM1 to be able to give them a withdraw order, albeit with a moral hit, enabling emergency re-positioning and no delay whatsoever.

Unfortunately, trying to reposition men - who are either under fire, or about to be - means almost inevitable destruction, which if you think about it, is pretty realsitic. Withdrawing men, with some semblance of order under fire is one of the most difficult things to accomplish (so I have read) so I can imagine that this shouldn't be just a 'chose the order and it will happen' solution.

Again, using my trench strong point scenario as reference, I found it near impossible to get guys who were being shot at to try and get out of LOS and LOF. The LOS blocking zig zag trenches, which I had created specifically for this fall back/retreat scenario, only made this a more frustrating experience as currently the AI doesn't seem to be able to negotiate them properly i.e men will expose themselves by running in a straight line, up and above the relative cover of the trench to reach the new waypoint.

Once this is improved, and if not fully pinned, I think the boys might get to live a little bit longer

[TheVulture]

Withdrawing wasn't exactly easy in CM1 either. One of the most useful bits of advice I heard (probably one of JasonC's nuggets) was along the lines of "if you wait until it looks like time to withdraw, you've left it too late". Which I found out when playtesting a scenario of an overwhelming Soviet attack on a German-held village - if I left on turn X, it felt too early. If I thought "I can probably take one more turn before leaving", then almost without fail the squads would be pinned by too much fire to get out of there the following turn, and only a rather mangled squad would make it out out of a whole platoon.

If you think "I should probably withdraw now" you've left it too late, and will be lucky to get anyone out of there.

Of course there may well be specific issues with movement / LoF in trenches as well.

[Childress]

I'm telling ya, this is a classic Surrender situation.

[Fat Dave]

Childress,

Hard to tell if you are being serious or not but do you think that veteran soldiers, armed to the teeth, and in relatively good fighting positions would simply throw down their weapons and throw up their arms in the face of an enemy AV?

Given the fact they have also been given 'high' motivation I reckon they would fight until either destroyed, or rout away.

However, in saying that, it would be nice to have the surrender behaviour re-included. It did add more 'realism' into CM1 when certain units, faced with overwhelming odds simply surrendered. Of course, the ones that turned fanatic were always a wonder to watch

[Pandur]

the trenches;

well actually we got perfect "irigation ditches" they look like them, they protect like them.

also i would not think that a squad in a proper trench would surrender to a lone vehicle if they have anything left(in my case it was the first trench line of about 3 lines, so they had quiet some mates in the back).

again, it was a single vehicle, extremely cheesy in my poin of view.

on top of that(in RL, not in the game that is) wouldnt they be at least partly "blind" and "defensless", ovcourse the vehicle i mean!? it cant lower its maingun, and so also the coax that far, also it should still have a, at least, minimal dead zone(compared to WW2) around the vehicle where it cant see.

its like they have the "curved barrels" especially designed to take out cowering syrians in their trenchs or so

so actually the brad driving up on a filled trench that close must be mad.

however in the game its pretty "smart", its even below the minimum range of the RPG. means i didnt saw a squad fire its RPG at a vehicle that close as it would hurt themselfs.

now that i think about, trench rushes must be even more effective with abrams

[SlapHappy]

Whatever happened to retreat out the back door and regroup a couple blocks back? Surely even untrained troops could grasp this concept.

I think it would be more interesting if the AI didn't fight and die in place if there were other options available (including surrender).

Officially requesting an AI fallback behaviour code for the engine....

[Childress]

Originally posted by Fat Dave:

Childress,

Hard to tell if you are being serious or not but do you think that veteran soldiers, armed to the teeth, and in relatively good fighting positions would simply throw down their weapons and throw up their arms in the face of an enemy AV?

I am serious and don't call me Shirley, either. And, yes, I believe average quality Arab troops would throw in the towel (no pun intended) in a scenario like this. They've been known to surrender to army nurses. Especially since BFC trenches are less than formidable and appear to simulate the 'hasty' type. Which, when you think about, may not be implausible given a rapidly moving front.

Not to beat a dead horse- it's not going to happen for a while- but CM2 really needs POWs.

[ May 27, 2008, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Childress ]

[MarkEzra]

Originally posted by SlapHappy:

Whatever happened to retreat out the back door and regroup a couple blocks back? Surely even untrained troops could grasp this concept.

I think it would be more interesting if the AI didn't fight and die in place if there were other options available (including surrender).

Officially requesting an AI fallback behaviour code for the engine....

That's an interesting thought! Thanks...

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[Pandur]

fallback isnt an option in trenches, especially in that mission/map. you ever tried to run out of your trench if the enemy observes it!? either i fall back while the US units are 1000+ meters away or i stay in the trench till the bitter end. everything else leaves my man dead long befor they would need to die(shot in the open).

however in the more "green" areas and urban areas it is partly an option, but in most cases you will take some serious casualties while doing it.

and i still dont know how they would be able to see down that trench. the vehicle is too close, i guess thats not taken into account.

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