LOS, LOF, units, and you!

[BDW]

I'd just like to add my two cents to this discussion: One thing that bothers me about the current LOS/aiming is that when area firing you are limited to a 2D plane, which is annoying becuase it is a 3D map.

In other words, in CMx2 I want to be able to aim my 150mm gun HIGH into the wooded area that I just saw an enemy platoon enter from the other side. This would have the effect of blasting the 150mm rounds deeper into the trees to suppress the platoon.

[juan_gigante]

Either area fire deeper into the treeline if you've got LOS, or else you are doing indirect fire, and that's a whole other can of worms.

[Sergei]

Well, there's this issue of Borg Spotting, and measures to reduce its ill effects.

In reality, your 150mm gun wouldn't know that enemies just entered the forest from other side, hence it wouldn't fire there.

[Tero]

Originally posted by Sergei:

In reality, your 150mm gun wouldn't know that enemies just entered the forest from other side, hence it wouldn't fire there.

Are you sure ?

Depending on the circumstances the gun crew might hear the fire fight and be able to determine who's who and let go a salvo on the location perceived to be occupied by the enemy.

If the 150mm gun in guestion belongs to the defender who is entrenched or otherwise know the location of friendly positions and has TRP's set up (a fire plan SOP related issue) and they hear what sounds like an overrun attack on one of the positions they might let go a salvo or two on or near the friendly position, especially if the FO has been off the air too long for comfort.

[Sergei]

If I was part of friendly infantry and witnessed the gun crew performing such a fire mission on their own initiative, just based on sounds, I'd execute them on spot. :mad:

[Drusus]

Area fire will be a problem with CMx2 if implemented like it is now. This is because even if your gun crew doesn't know anything about the enemy you can give area fire order to the location the unit is in. With guns this means almost as good performance as with targeting the unit directly. So I hope there will be a change how area fire is implemented. Maybe some command delays for area firing? Larger pattern for the area fire command?

Now it is possible to rout my defending units even if the gun has never seen the unit and has no LOS to the unit. Just place the area fire order close enough to the unit. If you play attack/defend multiplayer quick battles you know what I am talking about...

[aka_tom_w]

As it is now I presume (I could be wrong) that there is a big difference in "effectivenes" of HE rounds when they are used to "area fire" at a suspected, (unspotted by the shooter) target and when they have LOS and are firing at a target which has been spotted and is in LOF and LOS.

Is that correct?

If so in CMx2 they may have to make area fire almost useless, or just very very ineffective to the point that players will learn that blind fire and area fire without LOS or a spotted target largely becomes a waste of ammo. Suppression could be the only impact of blind area fire. Would that be realistic?

I would suggest it is wrong to ban area fire all together, but maybe they can make so ineffective when not directed at a spotted target, NOT in LOS, that it would simply become a waste of firepower causing only suppression.

(maybe)

-tom w

[ October 06, 2005, 05:55 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Drusus]

As I understand there is no difference to the damage the shell does if the shell is fired with target unit or if it is fired with area fire. However I think that firing area fire will give you a pattern of 15m circle, while targeting directly will target a smaller area, maybe even the exact point where the squad is. Also, I think there should _not_ be any decrease in the effect of the shell exploding if it is fired blind. It just doesn't make any sense. The shell explodes exactly the same way if it is fired blindly or if it is fired to the targed.

This area fire isn't really a problem except when you have big guns to play with. With 150mm shells it doesn't really matter if you hit the point of the target or if you hit 15m away from it.

There are some more points to consider with this. First: If you play CM, it doesn't make any sense to conserve ammo with guns. I mean you want to use _all_ of your ammo during the 30-60 mins of the game. Now this means that even if area fire isn't as effective as firing directly to the unit, it is still better to fire all your shells away than to conserve them for the next battle. Ofcourse, CM is a game, so there really isn't much to do about this. Ofcourse it would be interesting if you had your score calculated so that it gives points to the enemy from your lost combat effectivenes. That is losses would be a major part of the score, but so would be remaining ammo, the morale of your remaining units and so on. Ok, Im not sure, maybe these are already taken into the score?

Second point is that as I understand the squads in CMx2 will be occupying a much larger area. If I understand the system correctly, they are point sized in CMx1, but they will be represented to the man in CMx2. Now this means that area fire as it is will be even better against these targets.

[aka_tom_w]

The suggestion to conserve ammo and not waste it was intended to refer to "saving the ammo for a shot within the same battle with LOS to a spotted target for a better chance to kill" as opposed to conserving ammo for the next battle beyond the current one.

Area fire is a "player as God" problem, as has already been pointed out here:

"Well, there's this issue of Borg Spotting, and measures to reduce its ill effects. In reality, your 150mm gun wouldn't know that enemies just entered the forest from other side, hence it wouldn't fire there."

This is not so much a Borg spotting issue as it is a Player is God issue. The gun has not spotted the target but other units have seen the enemy unit go into the trees. Who gives the command to have the gun waste ammo by firing blindly into the trees. (The gun in this example has not spotted the enemy unit in the trees but the player thinks its there because one of his other units saw them go into the trees)

So who issues the fire order for the gun blindly into the trees??? Not the gun crew chief, he has no spotting info to go on regarding the units "supposedly" in the woods.

So now there is a problem with the radio net or the command and control structure to deal with. Should there be a delay between when the Player as God wants the gun to fire and when the first rounds start flying?? I think so.

Now the gun is ONLY using area fire. Should the gun be able to fire beyond its LOS and shoot rounds deeper into the trees than it can see (or through smoke for that matter???)

These are all good questions.

The example of the 150 mm gun is a good one to consider with respect to LOS and area fire and CMx2.

-tom w

[ October 06, 2005, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Drusus]

It could be a good idea to:

1) Have a firing delay for area fire. This way it would simulate the thing that somebody else is requesting the fire, and it will take some time to get that information to the gun.

2) Make area fire really what the name says. You give your unit a area where to fire. Make this area big enough, and the area fire wouldn't be so much a gamey way to use your god information, but a way to lay supressive fire to enemy position.

Ofcourse, what I have described is how indirect fire works in CM. But isn't this the way it is supposed to be? Either the gun sees a target and fires at it, or it is being told by somebody else that there is enemy platoon in that patch of wood, fire there. Ofcourse I might be wrong, unfortunately I have god vision in CM only...

[Wicky]

On the other hand it could hamper the legitimate tactic of say a tank stumbling upon and not wanting to get in LOS of say an 88, retreating a little and instead area targeting as near as it can, not necessarily at anyone elses request but its own (and the players).

Presently there is a delay anyway from when watching a movie to see that area target is needed, then to ordering hardware into position and then issuing the area target order. Why add even more delay?

[aka_tom_w]

did the tank spot the 88 on its own? (LOS to 88 had then backed away, yes?)

If so it knows about it now in its **NEW** unit memory

If so the area fire order might be reasonably expected to be NOT overly delayed.

yes?

-tom w

[ October 06, 2005, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[BDW]

My comment about the 150mm guns was a little misconstrued. Let me clarify: firing a 150mm gun into the visible tree-tops is not indirect firing; it is area-firing the gun and aiming high. Right now, CMAK only allows you to area fire into a spot on the ground, rather than area firing high into the tree-tops.

So, my point is that I when enemy troops are spotted entering a forested area from the E and I have guns set up on the W, I want to be able to fire those guns deeper into the forest. For example, say I have four 150 guns aimed at a 200 meter square patch of forest that an enemy platoon just entered from the other side. I should be able to use those 150mm guns to make that patch of forest a living hell by firing rounds into the trees and generally tearing up the forest. (not sure if CMx2 will allow destructible forests, but you get the idea)

So if you use my example in the current CMAK engine, the 150mm guns would only be able to target the leading edge of the forest, instead of being able to actually aim the gun, you are forced to aim them at the ground at the leading edge of the forest (where LOS is limited).

I hope that clarifies my comment.

[aka_tom_w]

I should be able to use those 150mm guns to make that patch of forest a living hell by firing rounds into the trees and generally tearing the forest. (not sure if CMx2 will allow destructible forests, but you get the idea).

I like it

-tom w

[ October 06, 2005, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Sergei]

Originally posted by BDW:

I should be able to use those 150mm guns to make that patch of forest a living hell by firing rounds into the trees and generally tearing up the forest. (not sure if CMx2 will allow destructible forests, but you get the idea)

But how does your gun crew know who are in the forest, unless they take advantage of the Borg spotting? Following your logic, shouldn't my on-map mortars be able to target any spot on the map as if there were target reference points there?

[BDW]

Borg spotting is a separate issue. For my example, assume that the gun crews were on a rise and saw the enemy enter the patch of trees. No borg spotting.

Try this: set up a battle with a 100m X 100m patch of forest. Put a company of Allies on the W side and put 100 elite German 150mm guns on the other side. Have the computer control the Allies, and start area firing your guns into the trees. Guess who takes the flag?

My issue/point has nothing to do with indirect firing or so-called "borg spotting".

Let me restate my point: In CMx2 I want to be able to AIM the guns HIGH into the trees, in order to get the rounds to penetrate the forest deeper and tree-burst, etc. It is just that simple.

Think about it: 100 150mm rounds traveling at 240m/sec would turn that 100m patch of forest into a living hell on earth, with some rounds penetrating very deep into the forest and exploding in the trees, etc.

I use the exaggerated example to make the point. But the same thing should apply to a single gun. Currently, there is zero effect on a platoon entering the 100m patch of trees. In real life, if you were in a platoon, entering a 100 m patch of trees, and there was a crazy german gun crew shooting 150mm rounds into the tree-tops, you'd proabably get "alerted" at the very least, and a lucky round could wipe out most of your squad mates or at least put them on the ground looking for cover.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by BDW:

Borg spotting is a separate issue. For my example, assume that the gun crews were on a rise and saw the enemy enter the patch of trees. No borg spotting.

[snip]

My issue/point has nothing to do with indirect firing or so-called "borg spotting".

Let me restate my point: In CMx2 I want to be able to AIM the guns HIGH into the trees, in order to get the rounds to penetrate the forest deeper and tree-burst, etc. It is just that simple.

You are right, it has nothing to do with borg spotting (hopefully), but all with God spotting. The problem is quite clearly whether it is possible to allow this action only for area fire near units that have been spotted by either the unit doing the area firing, or a unit within its, let's call it comms circle (e.g. a scout who could alert them or a commander who could order them). Otherwise you are going to see gamey abuse galore.

I am sure that if BFC can think of a way to do it, they will. But it does not seem an easy thing to do to me.

All the best

Andreas

Ps. A real-life example of this is the reduction of encircled Soviet forces in a forest in the Uman pocket in 1941, when the commander of 101. Jaegerdivision, Generalmajor Fretter-Pico, ordered 24cm mortars to fire in direct fire into the tree tops of the (relatively small) forest.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by BDW:

Let me restate my point: In CMx2 I want to be able to AIM the guns HIGH into the trees, in order to get the rounds to penetrate the forest deeper and tree-burst, etc. It is just that simple.

But they're firing at a location where they don't have a clear LOS to. They don't know if there are friends or foes over there.

In reality, they wouldn't be firing there, but in the game, you know, as the C-in-C, that the enemy was moving that way, so you are expecting them to be as all-seeing as you are. The thing is, you already have way too much control over where your troops can fire. Being given even more freedom would only result in even less realistic results.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BDW:

Let me restate my point: In CMx2 I want to be able to AIM the guns HIGH into the trees, in order to get the rounds to penetrate the forest deeper and tree-burst, etc. It is just that simple.

But they're firing at a location where they don't have a clear LOS to. They don't know if there are friends or foes over there.

In reality, they wouldn't be firing there, but in the game, you know, as the C-in-C, that the enemy was moving that way, so you are expecting them to be as all-seeing as you are. The thing is, you already have way too much control over where your troops can fire. Being given even more freedom would only result in even less realistic results. </font>

[BDW]

You guys are still missing my point. They DO have LOS to where they are firing; they are firing into the tree-tops that they can clearly see. No "borg" or "god" spotting issues here at all. The commander is assuming a likely approach of the enemy through the patch of trees, and decides to make that approach less attractive to the enemy by ordering his gun crews to fire 150mm rounds into those trees that they have clear LOS to. However, he orders them to aim the gun HIGH in order to get deeper penetration into the forest.

I hope this is possible in CMx2 becuase it is something that I find really unrealsitic and annoying in CMAK. Many, many times I've been frustrated when the enemy is barely 5 meters deeper into the forest then my LOS goes, so I am unable to fire rounds at them with any effect.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by BDW:

The commander is assuming a likely approach of the enemy through the patch of trees, and decides to make that approach less attractive to the enemy by ordering his gun crews to fire 150mm rounds into those trees that they have clear LOS to. However, he orders them to aim the gun HIGH in order to get deeper penetration into the forest.

Well, yeah, but the tree tops are not considered hostile and as such worthy targets. It is the tree burst effect against the enemy troops below that you're thinking about, but if the gun crew has no idea that there are enemy troops under those tree tops, then why the hell would they bother firing there? :confused:

[BDW]

Because they were told to (assumes that the guns are commanded by the player)

Don't overcomplicate my point. If the current system simply had an area fire "aim high" command, that would do the trick. You can simulate this in the current system by setting up some conscript gunners shotting down at the very top of a rise in the ground, with a forest behind and below the rise. Many of the errant rounds will go shooting into the forest at various distances.

All I am saying is that I want to see the "area fire" command issued in more than 2 dimensions, considering this is a 3D battle environment.

[ October 06, 2005, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: BDW ]

[Wicky]

Sergei, Try playing Andreas's CMAK armor exit scenario where you have a 'surprise' deep in the woods! You'll fiind you wish had the ability to poke it with something better than a sharp pointy stick

[Sergei]

Well, d'oh!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

You can hardly call that as a surprise anymore, now can you? Eh????

[Sergei]

Originally posted by BDW:

Don't overcomplicate my point.

But then where would be the fun?

Seriously, though, you have to consider the big picture. Whether the net effect of the change would be to the better or to the worse.

In my view, it'd be to the worse - the few times when your request would be legitimate, are offset by all the instances where it'd be abused. Your kilometrage may vary, naturally.