OPFOR Guide

[SlapHappy]

Found this .PDF link and thought it might be of interest to the board members:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/weg.pdf

Very thorough data set.

[leakyD]

Thanks for the link. Some good stuff in there.

What I wanna know is: When do we get to play with these?"

BTR-90

Or these?:

RPO-A

(click on the first link from the search results [uBB doesn't like "%" in the link...])

or a couple of these! (it says "short range"...):

TOS-1

[ June 16, 2008, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: leakyD ]

[the Fighting Seabee]

TOS-1? Tank On Steroids?

[Combatintman]

LeakyD

I wouldn't get too excited about the BTR-90 all it is is a BMP-2 turret on a BTR-80 Chassis - I'd rather stick with a BMP-2 to be honest.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Seems very cool. Thanks!

[leakyD]

Originally posted by Combatintman:

I wouldn't get too excited about the BTR-90 all it is is a BMP-2 turret on a BTR-80 Chassis - I'd rather stick with a BMP-2 to be honest.

According to these folks: BTR-90

...it's a new chassis, with upgrades.

For me, BMP-2's are not impressive. I'd rather have a bunch of BTR-90's, w. better maneuverability, for hit-and-run tactics.

BMP-3's, OTOH, might be an interesting alternative...

[John Kettler]

leakyD,

I've asked for everything on your list except the BTR-90, to include the TOS-1 Buratino. No word yet from Steve, but he did say he and the gang watched the May Day parade with great interest and that we should expect to see this reflected in a future module in a temperate climate. We think this means hypothetical NATO vs. resurgent Russia (and allies?)

in western Europe.

Regards,

John Kettler

[leakyD]

The use of RED thermobaric weapon technology will be QUITE a force equalizer, especially in MOUT.

From the Wiki for the RPO-A:

Each weapon contains a single rocket, of which there are three varieties. The basic rocket is the RPO-A, which has a thermobaric warhead and is designed for attacking soft targets under moderate cover. The RPO-Z is the incendiary warhead designed to spread fire and ignite targets. Finally, there is a smoke producing warhead offered, the RPO-D.

Basic rocket is thermobaric? Holy "Fire in the Hole", Batman!

What's even more interesting, is Russian SOP for using these weapons.

SOP seems to be: Use wantonly and generously. No problem. Really.

From the Wiki:

The Soviet armed forces also developed FAE weapons, including thermobaric warheads for shoulder-launched RPGs (RPO-A Shmel Bumblebee /Russian: РПО-А "Шмель"/). Russian forces have a wide array of these weapons[1] and reportedly used them against Chinese forces in a 1969 border conflict, and certainly used them in Afghanistan and in Chechnya. Russian troops report that a single RPO-A round in an urban environment has an equivalent effect to a 152 mm artillery round. TOS-1 "Buratino" is another Russian Army FAE weapon system, composed of a multiple rocket launcher mounted on a T-72 chassis. The TOS-1 was the main thermobaric delivery system that the Russians used against Grozny in the Second Chechen War.

Remember the pics of Grozny?

I always wondered what hell did that damage...

It seems the Russian ability to create *significant* short range firepower has continued *quite* well after WWII.

So, when's that module coming out, again?

[ June 14, 2008, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: leakyD ]

[Combatintman]

LeakyD,

Its still a BTR-80 chassis with a BMP-2 turret on the top - ask yourself - how many have been issued to the Russian Army and how many have been sold?

[Daniel Something Something]

Fallujah looked quite a bit worst than Grozny....

I, personally, don't see the big deal about thermobaric weapons; sure, they create a nice level of destruction within confined spaces, like shooting one through a window, but a HEAT warhead [of significant calibre] hitting beside the window will kill those in the room just the same (you don't need precise aim either). AARs from some of the first serious fighting in Najaf reported that a 120mm HEAT round into the side of a building usually kills all the occupants in the floor it's fired into, without overpenetration, or collapsing the structure like thermobaric weapons tend to do [if it's a weak enough structure].

It's just another tool that supports those already in use, rather than some "wonder" weapon so many people purvey.

[SgtMuhammed]

The Syrians already use thermobaric RPG rounds in CMSF.

[leakyD]

If the CM series are going to be living in the land of "what if's" and "maybe's", then having BTR-90's for RED does not seem far fetched. It's simply a matter of time to have it (and other weapons) included in a "themed" module.

I don't really see these as "wonder weapons", but am surprised at their level of accepted use, despite their volatility.

If RED forces (ie - Russian) are going to be modeled, it seems these types of weapons will have to be considered for inclusion to their units.

And that, I feel, will create many interesting tactical situations for us to play with.

[Combatintman]

I'd rather have BTR-40s, BTR-50s and BTR-152s first then - the Syrians HAVE those and they'll be great for Red on Red campaign designers putting together fictional African-style conflicts.

[Daniel Something Something]

As the Sgt said, the Syrians already have thermobaric grenades (the RPG-29 has them, I haven't seen my forces have them with the RPG-7V, however).

They don't seem to be better than any another large calibre grenade/rocket/projectile at killing people in the game. Though, I've only had them used a few times from the RPG-29 on dismounted troops that survived the HEAT-T attack on their vehicle.

[SgtMuhammed]

The thermobaric rounds for both have a 10m kill radius in RL. In the game that is reduced because of the artificial bunching of the squads. That's why it often seems that grenades don't do much to a blob of troops.

[leakyD]

Yes, the Syrians have them. However, the specific weapon systems (and tactics) the Syrians (and other RED forces) have are *quite* different than what the Russians have (and tactics employed).

Traditionally, Russian units have access to weapons/technology that other countries are denied. This has been Russia's way of having a little insurance in case one of their satellite countries ends up needing a little "intervention" (Czech, Hungary, Afhganistan, Chechnya, etc).

From the Global Security site:

The challenge of reliably producing consistent detonations has limited the application of this type of munition in Western arsenals.

...but, not so with the Russians. They even seem to favor this type of technology over "standard" munitions.

Look at the Beslan hostage scenario here

Criticism, including by Beslan residents (the survivors and the relatives of the victims), centered on the allegations that the storming of the school was ruthless, citing the confirmed[197] use of heavy weapons, such as RPO flamethrowers and tanks.

What in the HELL were the Russian units thinking, when they used (highly volatile) thermobaric technology in a hostage situation with hundreds of school children?

Is this just further evidence of the Russian military's lack of regard to human life?

...and if they're perfectly willing to use this type of technology on their own children and neighbors, what the *hell* are they going to pull out of the hat with a foreign enemy?

It seems, for the Russian military, when using these types of weapons, collateral damage is a non-item. It's irrelevant. Whatever!

This is why I feel that when RED forces include Russian units in a future module, things are going to get VERY interesting for the BLUE player (that is, if these weapons are included and modeled correctly).

[ June 16, 2008, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: leakyD ]

[The_Red_Rage]

Originally posted by leakyD:

What in the HELL were the Russian units thinking, when they used (highly volatile) thermobaric technology in a hostage situation with hundreds of school children?

Is this just further evidence of the Russian military's lack of regard to human life?

...and if they're perfectly willing to use this type of technology on their own children and neighbors, what the *hell* are they going to pull out of the hat with a foreign enemy?

The chain of events of Wiki site is not entirely correct and pretty one sided. The assault started after the explosion inside the gym. It was day 4 and the situation was critical.

http://www.stepashka.com/forum/t66435.html

(use firefox)

Here is a pretty interesting video series on Spetsnaz group "Vympel", following the life of one of members killed during Beslan. It's in Russian, but has pretty unique footage. Parts 4 and 5 deal specifically with Beslan. According to the video spesnaz operatives were not shooting Shmels at kids but rather covered them with their own bodies. Out of 10 men Vympel lost that day (unprecedented casualty number for the unit), most were shot in the back.

Russian army might have its problems, but it's not a horde of bloodthirsty monsters, and noone wanted to kill civilians and especially children. Both Nord-Ost hostage taking as well as Beslan had absolutely no precedent anywhere in the world in their brutality and impossibility to deal with using conventional means.

[leakyD]

Russian army might have its problems, but it's not a horde of bloodthirsty monsters, and noone wanted to kill civilians and especially children. Both Nord-Ost hostage taking as well as Beslan had absolutely no precedent anywhere in the world in their brutality and impossibility to deal with using conventional means./QUOTE]

Fair enough. It was a VERY unique and unexpected situation.

But to use thermobaric weapons in MOUT with civilians in the area seems a bit....oh, I don't know....reckless?

Then again...their use simply may be SOP.

If so, it will certainly be interesting to see how these weapons (and TO&E) are modeled and used in future CM modules.

btw - great vids...thanks for the link...