Syrian TO&E thread

[rudel.dietrich]

That is the problem I ran into

I have mountains of reports on these guys, but very little on their role in actual open warfare.

In fact I am going to say that an actual uniform does not exsist.

But I would also venture to say if war broke out in Syria that things would change since they are legally allowed to be there and have no reason to hide their nationality.

From what I can tell, their uniform seems to almost look like the uniform of any Western counter terrorism unit.

Black or smoke gray with black kevlar or steel helmets, black body armour and covered in special equipment, weapons, gernades, pistols and ammo magazines.

In the recent skirmish with Israel they opereted in uniforms to blend in with Hezbollah, so that helps us none.

I will dig up more info, but I would definitly model their uniforms to be a blend of the regular Syrian army and counter terrorism units.

[hellfish]

I'm poking around, not much to see. I found their unit patch:

Don't know if these guys are commandos (Lebanon '82)

With a Milan

[civdiv]

You said you were set on the tank stuff, but I found an article that mentions that 122 T-72 tanks had been upgraded to the TURMS-T standard. It also says that "T-90 tanks have conducted successful tests 'in a Middle Eastern country'" It talks a lot about new weapon acquisitions and various tactics to be used against, in this case, Israel.

I have a hard copy translation, but if anyone speaks Hebrew (I don't), the article (in Hebrew) is somewhere on this site;

http://epaper.maariv.co.il

The article is by Amit Kohen and it is called 'No Longer Rusty'.

[Battlefront.com]

Rudel,

Your info is inline with our own limited knowledge and the stuff you reported earlier, so baring any new information that is what we are going with. We are assuming that Squads would operate more like Western ones with two semi-independent Fire Teams. I also suspect that they would not waste two men on an RPG, but instead use under barrel grenade launchers and one shot disposible AT rockets (RPG-18 for example).

fytinghellfish,

Thanks for the unit patch! We'll try to find a way of using that. Those other pics you posted are already on my harddrive There are so damned few pictures showing Syrian soldiers in decent detail. Plenty of 10k thumbnail types in news reports, very few in the 100k+ range to get good details off of. Yeah, I've done plenty of Google searches and come up with little better than what I already have.

civdiv,

The only data we're lacking on the Turms conversion is what model T-72 was used as the base. We are guessing it would be a mix, but we're going to have to standardize on a single model. IIRC Dan found evidence that it would be the T-72M1 models.

Before he got banned, LoneSyrian confirmed that something like a dozen T-90s were in Syria. Rudel has already confirmed that the previous test T-80s were returned to Russia after tests and none were purchased after. The T-90s that are being tested in Syria are in advance of yet another arms deal. We presume that such a deal won't happen in the near future (1 year or so), at least not in appreciable numbers, but we are going to add the T-90 at some point since this time it looks like Syria will (eventually) get them. The T-80 deal, by contrast, was doomed to failure.

Steve

[John Kettler]

Steve,

I spent some time earlier today poring over Suvorov's SPETSNAZ to say what he had to say about foreign commandos and terrorist training in the then Soviet Union. Basically, what he said was that unlike Soviet units, the foreigners had no ammo expenditure restrictions and blazed away day and night. Security was very tight, and the foreigners were kept separate from everyone else.

Based on the sum total of what I've seen to date,

I think your decision to allow allow Syrian SF to operate as fireteams neatly parallels the Soviet/Russian approach in Spetsnaz, where fractionation can go as low as a pair, but typically just down to the autonomous team level, since it has all the necessary elements for such operations, to include a sergeant commanding and an organic radio and crypto operator. By contrast, and following the standard Soviet/Russian approach, as outlined for example in Cold War era unclassified DIA manuals, the standard infantry squad maneuvers and fights as unit--not in fireteams. The reason for this is the poor intellectual quality of the manpower in the then Soviet infantry, as outlined by Suvorov in his THE LIBERATORS. There, he describes how incredibly rudimentary the available commands were (believe there were three: advance, retreat, and hurrah!), in large part because of the abysmal Russian skills of his polyglot force. The Syrians are probably vastly better off on the language front, but I'd bet that they still practice the former Soviet approach.

Regards,

John Kettler

[hellfish]

I just remembered I have a book about Middle Eastern and Asian camouflage uniforms. Steve, being the uniform guru I know he is, probably already has it or could get it if he wants it. I can scan it if it'll offer anything new or useful. It does have a section on Syria, battle and garrison uniforms, as well as pins and badges (like airborne wings).

[Battlefront.com]

Sounds like Borsarello's book. Nah, I don't have it because it's full of errors. The collector's new bible is "DPM", a roughly $200 hardcover set of books.

As for Syrian uniforms, here is our understanding of what they have:

Camouflage - looks somewhat similar to US Woodland in terms of the pattern and colors. The Syrian figure with the RPG at the top of this Forum is wearing it. I've got one of these in my collection so we know we have the detailing correct There are some color variations due to printing inconsistencies and use, but it's the same pattern. As far as we can tell Airborne and 1st Line units (probably mostly armor) wear this uniform.

Olivegreen - similar cut as the camouflage uniform, but monotone OG color. This is the most common uniform and it is worn by 2nd Line units and probably some of the 1st Line units.

Tactical Black - similar to US BDU style police tactical uniforms. Special Forces wear this only.

The Militia units would likely wear some sort of mishmosh of various bits and pieces of whatever they had on hand. However, the standard would be the OG uniform.

Arab uniforms are usually devoid of markings, such as flags, names, and even rank. On the parade ground they often spruce up their uniforms with colorful epaulettes and what not. The Syrians are no exception. Don't ask me why because it makes NO sense to me.

The Syrians used to use a really nice "vertical lizard" pattern uniform for certain armored units, but that has been out of service for quite a long time.

Steve

[hellfish]

Yeah, I bought it at Ft Knox for about $20, figured it wasn't all that special, but just occasionally handy. It was worth a shot.

[Battlefront.com]

Don't get me wrong, it is better than what was available before it... nothing Unfortunately, though, the author is not known for accuracy. There also seemed to be a LOT of editorial type mistakes in that publication. The previous one on NATO and European uniforms was much better (though riddled with flaws too).

Steve

[Wicky]

What would be the significance of the sniper target blob of white paint on the helmets? Officer?

[rudel.dietrich]

The guards division has different uniforms from what I have seen.

Black cloth and officers have dark red steel helmets.

[Battlefront.com]

Hmmm... do they look like field uniforms? Dark red helmets sure does sound like a peacetime thing.

Steve

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Before he got banned, LoneSyrian confirmed that something like a dozen T-90s were in Syria. Rudel has already confirmed that the previous test T-80s were returned to Russia after tests and none were purchased after. The T-90s that are being tested in Syria are in advance of yet another arms deal. We presume that such a deal won't happen in the near future (1 year or so), at least not in appreciable numbers, but we are going to add the T-90 at some point since this time it looks like Syria will (eventually) get them. The T-80 deal, by contrast, was doomed to failure.

Steve

I have no evidence at all that T-90s have been sent to Syria or anywhere in the ME for that matter.

Algeria is the only nation I know of outside India that has placed an order or had test models delievered.

A platoon of T-80s were delievered to Syria in the spring of 2002 and then returned probably by that winter.

Reports were that the Syrians were not overly impressed with the tank but ordered several hundred anyways along with a mountain of spare parts for their aging fleet of T-72s and BMPs.

The deal has been finalized but as of yet no delieveries have been maded since Syria owes Russia quite a bit of money.

The T-90 is not even widely used in Russia and has seen limited production.

I find it hard to believe that any ME nation has put in a order yet.

The rich Arab nations and Egypt have seen the light and are ordered Western European and US hardware.

Those are the only nations that could afford the T-90 at this point.

So...

The T-80 would be more logical to added in a early module with the T-90 coming later.

I think everyone including myself would like to see both added in at some point.

[ December 30, 2006, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: rudel.dietrich ]

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Hmmm... do they look like field uniforms? Dark red helmets sure does sound like a peacetime thing.

Steve

Armour and APC crews had solid black uniforms and infantry had tiger stripe grey and black uniforms.

Red helmets do indeed sound like parade ground helmets.

[rudel.dietrich]

Steve

When the art team gets them done, can you send me some screenshots of the SF uniforms?

I have about 20 or so pictures and perhaps I can suggest a few tweaks.

Sending you the pictures would be the best way to do it

But well...we would both get in trouble

[Battlefront.com]

Yup, tank crews usually have black coveralls. That makes sense. It also makes sense that the helmets are "for show" and not "for combat". Tiger stripe gray and black uniforms... that sounds quite unusual. Certainly not anything I've seen in the area. Gray based uniforms are fairly common for security personnel in ME countries. The most common styles are based on US Woodland and British DPM.

I'll dig deeper into my non-classified sources

Steve

[flamingknives]

web page suggesting that there have been a few T90s been produced.

[Battlefront.com]

Good article. Reminds us all that just because something looks good on paper doesn't mean it is good in actual use. Who cares how sophisticated the tank is if the inside temp is 140 deg? An abandoned tank is not much of a threat And a tank platoon with only 1 operational tank due to mechanical breakdowns of the others isn't very useful.

Steve

[John Kettler]

Steve,

ISTR that the M1 series wasn't fitted with air conditioning either, as evidenced by the newspaper articles talking about how Dubai's would be specially fitted with AC in order to help the crews endure the sweltering heat and humidity of the Persian Gulf. Thus, unless the M1A2s and such are,

I fail to follow that particular point. Brutal internal temperatures have been a problem for tank crews, as far as I can tell, as long as there have been tanks, yet somehow Rommel and the Eighth Army managed, followed later by the Americans.

The FLIR issue, though, is a big deal.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Battlefront.com]

John,

M1A1 and M1A2 both have air conditioning from what I know. So does the Stryker, though that was added after.

True, brutal temps inside metal cans in the desert have been a problem since people thought it was a good idea to make them and park them in said desert with people inside. However, some AFVs have better ventilation than others. From the sounds of it the T-90 isn't amongst the better ones. Apparently 140f is not reached soley as a result of ambient weather conditions, but in part because of inadequate cooling of the vehicle's systems. Meaning, it might only be 100f outside but 140f inside (or something like that. Check out this link:

http://mosnews.com/news/2006/10/27/rustankstoindia.shtml

Having roughly 1/4 of your tank's fire control systems out of commission due to the heat alone is also a bad thing.

Steve

[John Kettler]

Steve,

Am glad to read this--for the sake of the crews! SOFAIK, though, the earlier ones had none, at least, that I ever heard of. Back in my aerospace days, the heat stress issue was such a big deal that active cooling vests for AFV crews were being given serious consideration, and MOPP ops made it even more important.

Don't know how applicable this might be to your modeling of Syrian capabilities, but it seems at least some tank models have a capability I've never seen before-- a direct analogue of the fuzing arrangement for the OICW. This time, though, it's for 125mm HE-FRAG. It's under What's New here, together with a wealth of detailed data on the various AP, HEAT, HE and APERS projectiles.

No idea why a direct link doesn't display, but the info content is astonishing. Note, too, the return of the canister round.

http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/

Regards,

John Kettler

[flamingknives]

"The fusing for OICW"? No doubt that's the type that currently bears the TLA "ABM" (Air Burst Munition).

In the old days, it was called shrapnel.

[Battlefront.com]

John,

Am glad to read this--for the sake of the crews! SOFAIK, though, the earlier ones had none, at least, that I ever heard of.

Correct. The original M1 series apparently had no air conditioning as such. Then again, the tank was part of the time period when just about everything designed by the US military forgot to take into consideration operating in the desert. Apparently the Cold War mentality assumed there would be Cold

Back in my aerospace days, the heat stress issue was such a big deal that active cooling vests for AFV crews were being given serious consideration, and MOPP ops made it even more important.

These vests exist, though I don't know which vehicles use them. I've got one, in fact. It is worn under the uniform and it does two things:

1. Puts an air gap between the uniform and the skin for better ventilation.

2. Circulates cooled air via a hose around the vest. There are multitudes of small vent holes that allow the air to be dispersed all over the torso, both front and back.

Don't know how applicable this might be to your modeling of Syrian capabilities,

Not for the vehicles Syria has going into CM:SF, that's for sure. The older gun systems aren't capable of firing this new round.

Steve

[John Kettler]

Steve,

Even if the OICW on steroids is out, and might not be if the T-90 makes it into a module, I would think that a lot of the other info would be useful. Nor do I see any reason that canister couldn't be used.

Where did it gets the vest, we wonders?

Regards,

John Kettler

[flamingknives]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

[snips]Even if the OICW on steroids...[/snips]

It's a shrapnel shell! It has a fancy high-tech method for setting the fuse, but it's still, functionally, a shrapnel shell.