rudel.dietrich Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 As promised in the other thread, I have started looking into how Syrian units are organized and equiped and in what numbers. I have access to most Janes publications (I have my own account...woo-hoo!)as well as a few other sources. Well im sorry to say that information is still hard to come by. Or I should say that reliable information is hard to come by. Some of the sources just list ranges for amount of hardware that Syria posesses and much of what I have seen is contradictory. Anyways, here are my preliminary findings. Hopefully some of which will be usefull. [ August 31, 2006, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: rudel.dietrich ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 rudel.dietrich, A noble effort, to be sure, but how are we supposed to evaluate the information when you don't post it? Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudel.dietrich Posted August 31, 2006 Author Share Posted August 31, 2006 Infantry My main effort right now is infantry, once I have that down to my or BFs satisfaction I will move on to something else. I guess we should start with the basic Syrian army infantry company. The backbone of any army. A Syrian Infantry company for the most part is made up of ten nine man squads. The first squad contains the company commander and the XO and then 7 others. As far as I can tell the squad is armed the same as the other squads. The only omission seems to be that the company HQ squad has no RPG gunner, instead someone hauls around a radio. The rest of the company is split into three platoons of three sqauds each. Most are armed in this fashion Everyone except the squad LMG gunner carries a AK-47. Also everyone carries 2-3 grenades (I could not find any specific type, I don't guess it matters in game terms). There is a squad LMG gunner and his assistant. THe LMG is a 7.62mm RPK saw. A few sources I read seem to indicate that often times the squad leader is the gunners assitant. Not sure about that one. One major point of contention is how many RPGs are carried in a platoon. One source indicated two per platoon while others indicated it was one per squad in every squad but the company command squad. One point of agreement is that almost every RPG is the RPG-7V type. It seems 1-2 HE warheads are carried and 3 AP warheads. Tandem warheads are commonplace even in the basic Syrian army. I only found one source of how much rifle ammo is carried. It said three additional magazines are carried and 90 loose rounds. I would not count that as very reliable. The LMG gunner and his assistant carry 3 each 75 round drums. I found that from two sources. One piece of interesting information is that the squad does not use fireteams. I assume that level of coridination and control just does not exsist in 'third world' armies. Is that commonplace? Next up I will share my findings on a heavy weapons support company. [ August 31, 2006, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: rudel.dietrich ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudel.dietrich Posted August 31, 2006 Author Share Posted August 31, 2006 I also want to apologize in advance for any of my English mistakes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 No need to apologize; your English is far better than many of the native speakers who post here. Thank you; please do continue to post your findings. Interesting stuff, and I suspect Steve appreciates the effort as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudel.dietrich Posted August 31, 2006 Author Share Posted August 31, 2006 A Syrian weapons company for all intents and purposes has no clear formation. But here is some of what I have found. The CO squad is usualy along the lines of a normal infantry squad. 9 men, all with rifles except the LMG gunner. It also seems that a RPG-7V is given to this squad. The funtion of this squad is CC with the rest of the weapons and cordination with the batallion it is supporting. Here is where things gets hazy. There are it seems three main weapons groups that a support company contains. Crew served machine guns ATGMs Man portable SAMs Janes seems to indicate that a weapons comapany has... One command squad (like I listed above) Two three man ATGM teams. Usualy AT-3 or AT-4 types. Can also be Milan, AT-13 or AT-14 types. All three carry AKM rifles. Probably with half loads of ammunition. It also seems that they carry a RPG-7V... Not sure how reliable that is but I guess it makes sense in a defensive role or for fire support which is one of the functions of the support squad. Ammo seems to be around 4 missles. Janes also lists that the company has three two man SAM teams. Mostly with old SA-7s or newer SA-14s One man carries an AKM with a half load of ammo. SAM rounds are 3-4. Some brand new SA-16s have been reported. To sum that up, Janes lists. Command squad ATGM Team x2 Infantry Sam team x3 Now to the machine guns... Only a few sources listed these. And most had them with the 2nd line infantry support companies. It does not seem that 1st line Syrian units have crew served machine guns. The models listed were the 7.62mm PKMS MMG and the 12.7mm NSV HMG. Since most of the game will have the Syrians on the defensive, it would seem to me that crew served machine guns would need to be added to support companies. All machine guns serve in sections of two guns. The PKMS section has a crew of 6 and the NSV section has a crew of 8. I could not find any good info on how much ammo machine gun crews carry. Since each section has two guns I would not think it would be much. I guess the guns are intended to be mobile which makes it odd that only second line units would have them (units that would probably be in static defense) I will do more digging in this area. [ August 31, 2006, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: rudel.dietrich ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 Now that's some good info! Well done Rudel!! This confirms a couple of things and adds a few new dimensions. Off the top of my head it's confirmed the size and composition of the Squads. That's VERY important. My guess on the grenade count was correct, my LMG ammo count low. I had guessed 4 drums (1 in gun + gunner spare + 2 carried by assistant), not 6 (probably 1 in gun, + 2 on gunner + 3 carried by assistant). The Soviets didn't have the company command squad. Instead they had the usual small staffed command element they've had since WWII. So finding out there is a 7 man squad at that level is an interesting find. As is the issue about how many RPGs are in a platoon. Standard Soviet TO&E has a dedicated RPG gunner in each squad and one guy in the platoon having a SVD sniper rifle. I'm sure the latter has been retained by the Syrians since SVDs seem to be commonplace in the Arab world. Good to have more confirmation that the Syrians do not have automatic grenade launchers. I've found weapons lists in a few places and they list everything you'd expect except for this weapon. Soviet and Russian TO&E has tons of them. Keep the info coming! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudel.dietrich Posted September 1, 2006 Author Share Posted September 1, 2006 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: Now that's some good info! Well done Rudel!! This confirms a couple of things and adds a few new dimensions. Off the top of my head it's confirmed the size and composition of the Squads. That's VERY important. My guess on the grenade count was correct, my LMG ammo count low. I had guessed 4 drums (1 in gun + gunner spare + 2 carried by assistant), not 6 (probably 1 in gun, + 2 on gunner + 3 carried by assistant). The Soviets didn't have the company command squad. Instead they had the usual small staffed command element they've had since WWII. So finding out there is a 7 man squad at that level is an interesting find. As is the issue about how many RPGs are in a platoon. Standard Soviet TO&E has a dedicated RPG gunner in each squad and one guy in the platoon having a SVD sniper rifle. I'm sure the latter has been retained by the Syrians since SVDs seem to be commonplace in the Arab world. Good to have more confirmation that the Syrians do not have automatic grenade launchers. I've found weapons lists in a few places and they list everything you'd expect except for this weapon. Soviet and Russian TO&E has tons of them. Keep the info coming! Steve A few points. The command squad was interesting, but it is a nine man squad, not seven. It has the composistion of a real squad but instead of a RPG it has a radio. I will keep digging to see if the command squad is indeed a nine man squad. It appears at the batallion level that a 5 man team is used. I have not found much about snipers or marksmen at the army level. I have found quite a bit about Syrian speical forces snipers and how they are used, but not about regular army snipers. Whether or not the SVD is used at the platoon level I do not know. As for gernade launchers, as far as I can tell they are not used at the squad or platoon level. Their special forces do make use of them but I will get to that in a later post. The Syrian army DO posess AGL's but they used the crew served AGS-17. Some evidence supported that these are used in defensive situations with the batallions support company. I am going to dig into this more. I am also going to dig into the gernade launcher on the squad level. Nothing I have seen supports that they are used and as far as I can tell no one outside of Russia and some western armies use these at a squad level. No middle eastern nation that I know of uses these but I will keep digging anyways. If you need anything specific let me know. Later tonight I am going to share what I learned about second line units and the batallion formation. I am then going to start looking into a Syrian motorized and mechanized company and batallion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudel.dietrich Posted September 1, 2006 Author Share Posted September 1, 2006 Second line infantry units I am not sure how these are planned to be implemented. I would guess these might be militia units or just very low quality regular army troops. These formations exist now and are what the conscripted soldiers of Syria serve in. They receive some basic training and can fight cohesivly but I suspect under a determined assault they would be merely speed bumps. They mostly are there because they have too and cant wait to get back home. I have also seen suggestions that upon mobilization Syria and organize and get many many divisions of these men into battle all around the country in a short period of time. They would basicly be what America would call NG troops. Those conscripts activly serving would be reserve divisions. So I see Syria having 5 levels of troops. 1st level Special forces Paratroopers From what I read these units are actualy fairly elite and the men and officers in them are to a certain degree put there based on ability and not wealth or social stats. A rarity in Islamic armies. 2nd level Guards armoured units, infantry units and mech units These men are well trained and well equiped but it is my biased opinion that under anything more than simple tasks they would break down because their high level and mid level officers and placed there because of wealth and social status. 3rd level Regular Syrian army 4th level 2nd line infantry and armoured formations. Reserve units Poor quality 5th level Militia units that would appear once mobilization occured. These would be Syrian army units and NOT insurgents. They would be organized and have uniforms. However they would be very poor quality and would break en masse after given a few swift knocks. I am not going to comment on insurgent units since that is impossible to research. I will discuss Hezbollah units at a later time. A second line infantry company has a 9 man command squad like a regular army unit. However, instead of 3 platoons it has 4 platoons. Each platoon has three squads. They are armed with AKMs and have the same ammo load. The LMG however appears to be the older RPD type. They use 100 rnd drums and carry 5 drums including the one in the MG. They use the RPG-7V and as far as I can tell use tandem warheads (apparently Syria uses these exclusivly now) I think they are also assinged two sections of machine guns. The 7.62mm PKMS being the more popular. The NVS is still avaliable in large quanities however. Each section has two MGs so each company would have 4 crew served machine guns. So here is a reserve infantry company 1 x command squad 12x infantry squads with 9 men each 2x MG sections with two MGs each for a total of 4 MGs As far as I can tell a reserve batallion does not have a heavy weapons company. Some sources suggest that to bolster the companies AT capabilities that two RPG teams are included and attached to the command squad. These are independent three man teams. Two men carry AKMs, one man carries a RPG-7V Ammo load is large since three men carry the rockets. 4 HE rounds and 8 HEAT rounds being carried. Also RKG-3 gernades are carried. One carried by each man for a total of three. I would suggest the game have two versions of the reserve company. One that was regular and an AT+ version that had the two RPG teams. One source also stated that the regular syrian army and reserve formations were using the RPG-18 and one chart I looked at had the RPG teams in the reserve companies using RPG-18s I find that hard to believe. As I stated earlier, the AGS-17 is used in reserve Syrian formations and from what I can tell is given out at a batallion level like candy. 6 are given out per batallion. That is all for tonight. I will give everyone a few days to critique and digest what I have found. Up next I am going to do motorized and mechanized infantry companies. After that armour. After that special crew served heavy weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwazydog Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 Rudel, that is some great information, thanks for passing it on! Originally posted by rudel.dietrich: One command squad (like I listed above) Two three man ATGM teams. Usualy AT-3 or AT-4 types. Can also be Milan, AT-13 or AT-14 types. All three carry AKM rifles. Probably with half loads of ammunition. It also seems that they carry a RPG-7V... Not sure how reliable that is but I guess it makes sense in a defensive role or for fire support which is one of the functions of the support squad. I may be able to shed some light on this one, at least as far at the AT-3 teams are concerned. As I understand it the RPG is carried as a backup with AT-3 teams as the AT-3 has a 400m odd dead zone in which its trajectory cannot be controlled and thus its basiaclly useless. Within this zone RPG's are used instead of the AT-3. Interesting info about the AGS-17, it appears that it is widely used. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oren_m Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 Well, i know that the more advanced ATGM such as the AT-14 Kornet are expected to be found only with the special syrian commandos. These forces are some sort of suicide froces, they are usually deployed as airborne (MI-8) or ground, they will tend to ambush the rear forces with their ATGM's, probobly try to hit strategic vehicles. Once they finished their job (and ammo) they simply stay behind enemy lines until they are killed or captured. I dont know how useful these tactics will be against small forces such as in CMSF, they will probobly use the same ambush tactics, but without the being killed stuff, becasue they will use ammo storages within the villeges they will fight from, just like the Hizballah did in South Lebanon. Oren_m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 As for the AGS-17... I know that Soviet TO&E calls for 6 per Battalion, organized as a Company with three Platoons. Up until now I've had doubts that the Syrians actually have these, or at least have them in numbers that would outfit a significant portion of their Battalions. But it would appear that is incorrect? Oren, the nature of Syrian Special Forces does make them problematic for us. Much of what they are supposed to do is not relevant to CM:SF. However, I suspect that they would be used to trip up an attacking force at choke points on obvious advance routes, large urban areas, or critical terrain. So my guess is they are relevant to a CM:SF scale game. They just shouldn't be all that common, despite their relatively large numbers. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: Standard Soviet TO&E has a dedicated RPG gunner in each squad and one guy in the platoon having a SVD sniper rifle. I'm sure the latter has been retained by the Syrians since SVDs seem to be commonplace in the Arab world.Are you sure on this point? "SVDs" are common in Iraq, but that is only because they were producing their own SVD knock-off. I know that the Balkan knock-offs (Like the Romanian PSL) have become increasingly common throughout the world (cheap compared to a Russian SVD). I know it is "officially-adopted" by the Syrians, but I wonder if they really have one for every infantry platoon. [ September 01, 2006, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: akd ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudel.dietrich Posted September 1, 2006 Author Share Posted September 1, 2006 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: As for the AGS-17... I know that Soviet TO&E calls for 6 per Battalion, organized as a Company with three Platoons. Up until now I've had doubts that the Syrians actually have these, or at least have them in numbers that would outfit a significant portion of their Battalions. But it would appear that is incorrect? I want to make it clear that they are handed out to only reserve batallions. I found no information that would support their being used with regular Syrian army forces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 AKD, I have no idea if they have enough to do one per platoon On the one hand I tend to doubt it, on the other small arms are one of the only things the Syrians have been able to require on a regular basis. Rudel, thanks for the follow up info. Interesting! Well, this makes sense. Cuts down on a logistics to have them emplaced more-or-less statically. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudel.dietrich Posted September 1, 2006 Author Share Posted September 1, 2006 As for special forces, I am digging up lots and lots of those guys! They are easier to find info on than regular amry units. I will get to them next week. But just for a preview, Syrian army doctrine would be to break them up into many company sized units and have them fight beside regular army units to 'stiffen' them up a little bit. They would also aide reserve and militia units to ensure they stayed on the battlefield longer. Something like NKVD units in the Second World War. They would also go to ground as soon as a war started and then come out of the woodwork to aide an insurgency situation or as Oren mentioned attack rear forces. I think they would be very common in CM:SF and in a real war. However I think BF should not include then in anything over company size. I found no indication that they operate in anything over that size and everything I have found so far indicates that as soon as a conflict started they would break down into company sized groups. I will probably get to them late next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellfish Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 The Commandos/SF sound a lot like the Saddam Fedayeen and Republican Guard units in OIF - they were used to bolster the militias and regular army units too (and after most of those guys fled, the Fedayeen were often the only ones left fighting). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellfish Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 Originally posted by rudel.dietrich: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Battlefront.com: As for the AGS-17... I know that Soviet TO&E calls for 6 per Battalion, organized as a Company with three Platoons. Up until now I've had doubts that the Syrians actually have these, or at least have them in numbers that would outfit a significant portion of their Battalions. But it would appear that is incorrect? I want to make it clear that they are handed out to only reserve batallions. I found no information that would support their being used with regular Syrian army forces. </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudel.dietrich Posted September 1, 2006 Author Share Posted September 1, 2006 Originally posted by fytinghellfish: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rudel.dietrich: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Battlefront.com: As for the AGS-17... I know that Soviet TO&E calls for 6 per Battalion, organized as a Company with three Platoons. Up until now I've had doubts that the Syrians actually have these, or at least have them in numbers that would outfit a significant portion of their Battalions. But it would appear that is incorrect? I want to make it clear that they are handed out to only reserve batallions. I found no information that would support their being used with regular Syrian army forces. </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudel.dietrich Posted September 1, 2006 Author Share Posted September 1, 2006 Originally posted by fytinghellfish: The Commandos/SF sound a lot like the Saddam Fedayeen and Republican Guard units in OIF - they were used to bolster the militias and regular army units too (and after most of those guys fled, the Fedayeen were often the only ones left fighting). Except they are alot better equiped, better trained, and are there because they want to be and can gain rank based on merit. Syria has 13-14 regiments of these forces. I think they should be able to go toe to toe with American forces and inflict some casulties. They would have high morale and would not run easily. The problem is that they would fight in small numbers and would not have much in the way of support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellfish Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 Are their regiments equivalent to battalions or brigades (like Soviet regiments)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudel.dietrich Posted September 1, 2006 Author Share Posted September 1, 2006 Originally posted by fytinghellfish: Are their regiments equivalent to battalions or brigades (like Soviet regiments)? The SF division is three regiments in size and each regiment three batallions in size (as far as I can tell) The Syrians also have 10-11 independent regiments in the Golan Heights, Lebanon, the border of Iraq and border of Turkey. They are enlarged batallions. Usualy three SF companies and a fourth company that is a jack of all trades, intelligence, heavy weapons, AT, SAMs, vehicle operators etc. There is one independent regiment called the Al-Sa'iqa. This is probably the most elite of all syrian forces. They are mainly counter terror and commando trained and have trained with the Black Cobras of Oman and probably the Russian Spetnez. They use a massive varity of weapona. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oren_m Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 Originally posted by rudel.dietrich: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by fytinghellfish: Are their regiments equivalent to battalions or brigades (like Soviet regiments)? The Syrians also have 10-11 independent regiments in the Golan Heights </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudel.dietrich Posted September 1, 2006 Author Share Posted September 1, 2006 Originally posted by oren_m: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rudel.dietrich: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by fytinghellfish: Are their regiments equivalent to battalions or brigades (like Soviet regiments)? The Syrians also have 10-11 independent regiments in the Golan Heights </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudel.dietrich Posted September 1, 2006 Author Share Posted September 1, 2006 I am on my way home from work. I have my laptop loaded down with more info and tonight I will share what I found about Syrian mechanized companies/batallions Fans of the BMP-2 will he happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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