Raising hand for digital download

[Justanotherwargamer]

Originally posted by Qyusson:

Digital Download.. shipping.. all the same, as you need to pay via inet. cant trust that. I want the game in the store next door..

All things considered, not all of us have the "store next door", or down the street or anywhere in town for that matter.

Meanwhile, I live in the modern world (can't speak for everyone), and I would rather by 21st century products in a 21st century fashion.

Only place I use plastic is with online transactions. And thanks to an article about a recent Citibank disaster, I have no intention of beginning to trust the retail scene with anything but actual cash."

"i dont understand why battlefront does not offer its products in retail. It would sell more,"

A misconception. Stores expect price reductions, massive price reductions. And then when your non mainstream product fails to sell 30 copies on the day they first put it on the shelf, poof your trash is in the bargain bin.

I have no gripe with Battlefront wanting to always get their XX dollars consistently for their games.

Digital though cuts out the XX dollars plus shipping, plus entering foreign countries duties and all that other nonsense that often leaps out to bite some persons out of the blue.

With digital, you KNOW what it will cost you, and you KNOW it won't cost anything else.

No surprises.

[Moon]

Originally posted by Qyusson:

thx for your fast response Martin, and i know there are other ways, but its so much easier to get it in the store.. i dont understand why battlefront does not offer its products in retail. It would sell more, and even if i understand the ideas behind it i dont see why games in stores would deteriorate on the quality of your products. Is it about the fear of being treated as a big-business company? it all doesnt make any difference as your products r still the best in wargaming.

Hi Qyusson,

let me try to explain then There are several reasons.

For one, it's simple math... while we could no doubt "sell more" in retail in units, what counts at the end of the day is the dollar value. And selling 30,000 units in retail when we get $5 per copy sold is less than selling 5,000 copies when we get $45 per copy sold.

The problem is that the days of 100,000+ unit sales in the strategy/war game market are a thing of the past. So we NEED the direct distribution to sustain developing games. Without it, there would be no SC2, no CMSF, and pretty much none of our other games that we publish.

Secondly, games in retail age quickly. Anything that isn't selling like hot cakes is going to be discounted days after release, and within months, simply disappears from the shelves. We don't think that's fair... and selling directly to our customers means that we do not have to rely on the mercy of the retailer.

However, you're not quite right. We do sell in retail. The difference is that we hold back our games for a retail release for usually 6-12 months or more. That way we get the best of both worlds, and, what is even more importantly, we're able to get retail to subscribe to our terms, not theirs. All of our past games are or have been available at retail, and the new ones (SC2 in Germany, DIF and T72 in Europe and North America later this year) will be soon.

So far for economical reasons. But you're right about something else you said: retail does "deteriorate" the quality of games.

Truth is that the retail market follows certain rules to which no-one is immune. You simply HAVE to work around certain deadlines for example. This puts the development at risk, because it puts the developer under time pressure.

Secondly, when selling through retail, you have to sell the game to the retailer first, before you sell it to his customer. And such retailers usually know nothing about games, so they're looking for certain catchwords of what is hot currently before deciding how much shelf space they'll give you. This means that when developing for retail you always run the risk of having to adjust your game design to fit whatever is the hottest clone out there. Having our own outlet means that we're in a much stronger position, as we develop the game for what we think is good, and if retail doesn't want it, fine. So far, however, all of the games that we have released have been sucked up by retail quicker than we could sign the contracts because of the great reviews and response that they usually generate.

There you have it, our business model in a nutshell. It is possible due to the continuing support of our fans on the one hand, and so far, after more than 6 years, it has been a win-win-win for everbody:

- a win for the fans because they get games which are designed and developed with a kind of independence that wouldn't be possible otherwise

- a win for us because we're able to maximize revenue in a shrinking market

- a win for retail even because they get proven and successful games after a while

Of course the reason why you don't see more people do it like this is that it's not easy to extablish this kind of presence online. Having a blockbuster title like Combat Mission has helped us to grow absolutely beyond expectations, and without it, Battlefront might not have been possible. Which is why we are more than happy to extend a hand to fellow developers like Hubert and all the others so that they can profit from our hard-won independence.

Martin

[Moon]

Originally posted by Drusus:

I hope you are not going to include some evil DRM system. DRM is fine and I understand why you have to have one. But I don't understand if it is going to be starforce or sony style system, which might break your computer or do other evil things.

[snip]

Online checking of serial keys is propably the only really effective way. How to do this in a single player game is the problem. (Or in a two player game.) GCII uses continuous updates only available via serial key. It is propably possible to get the updates without the serial, but it is going to be so much trouble that I think their system will work. Something like this for BFC games would be great.

You got it, as this is precisely the way we're going to go. We will use a DRM but won't use the systems you mentioned, but something else which will require you to enter a serial number before being able to launch the game for the first time. There are ways to install the game on a computer that is not connected to the internet, too, and you can also install the game on your laptop for example. Like I said, we're almost at the end of the evaluation period, so chances are that we'll be ready in time for when SC2 is shipping. The system is not intrusive and yet very effective.

We have tried to do without a DRM and even released a couple of games without copy protection entirely, but quite frankly, the community out there did not hesitate to take full advantage of it at our cost, and we have found so many pirated copies of our latest releases on the net within a short period of time, that we simply have to take steps to protect our copyrights. We even hired a company that is detecting trading of pirated versions on the internet and reporting it to the authorities. Some T72 users should have received mail by now.

Anyway, what I am saying is that we have to use DRM in the future, but part of why it has taken us so long to find a system is that we always care about cutomer experience and were looking for a system that is least annoying and still effective.

Martin

[Drusus]

However, you're not quite right. We do sell in retail. The difference is that we hold back our games for a retail release for usually 6-12 months or more. That way we get the best of both worlds, and, what is even more importantly, we're able to get retail to subscribe to our terms, not theirs. All of our past games are or have been available at retail, and the new ones (SC2 in Germany, DIF and T72 in Europe and North America later this year) will be soon.

Am I right if I say that you have nothing against an invidual retail store buying multiple copies of the game when it is released and selling them locally? I mean if they pay the full price? Ofcourse this is not a good deal for retail stores except if they want to provide a service to buy the game without online payment.

Of course the reason why you don't see more people do it like this is that it's not easy to extablish this kind of presence online. Having a blockbuster title like Combat Mission has helped us to grow absolutely beyond expectations, and without it, Battlefront might not have been possible. Which is why we are more than happy to extend a hand to fellow developers like Hubert and all the others so that they can profit from our hard-won independence.

In other words, you have to make great games to sell them online. One could think that if the game is sold only online it must mean that it is of low quality. The retail stores don't want it... I think the opposite is true. You must have a great game to sell it online, else nobody will buy it. In retail it is possible to sell crap games because people are less likely to have the same level of knowledge of what they are buying.

BTW I think that you are going to get a huge success with drop team. It should be a game that has potential to sell outside of the hardcore wargamers section of the market. And then ofcourse there is CMx2, which I believe will also be a huge success. SC2 and Les Grognards are propably going to be too much "war games" to sell as well. With dropteam, the only thing you need is that people find out about the game. The demo (I heard it should be out in days now) should do the trick. The concept of the game seems to be great. Fast paced multi-multiplayer "FPS" action with real tactics. Anyways I believe BFC is going to have great times ahead.

You got it, as this is precisely the way we're going to go. We will use a DRM but won't use the systems you mentioned, but something else which will require you to enter a serial number before being able to launch the game for the first time. There are ways to install the game on a computer that is not connected to the internet, too, and you can also install the game on your laptop for example. Like I said, we're almost at the end of the evaluation period, so chances are that we'll be ready in time for when SC2 is shipping. The system is not intrusive and yet very effective.

You are going to have a number lock on the CD case, aren't you?

Anyway, what I am saying is that we have to use DRM in the future, but part of why it has taken us so long to find a system is that we always care about cutomer experience and were looking for a system that is least annoying and still effective.

The way I see it, DRM should make the using of the illegal copy of the game hard enough to make the user buy the game. Ofcourse the optimal solution is to prevent all copying in the first place, but this seems to be hard (except for MMORPGs and such). No updates, no multiplayer for you and all that. The problem with starforce is that it makes the use of the _legal_ copy of the game hard enough to make the user use a crack. This happens a lot. And even with starforce, the game can still be copied. I think there has never been really effective copyprotection in the form of cd-checks...

[Qyusson]

thx for the briefing Martin, now i understand fully why. Ill have to adapt and ask some friends' visa

[fischkopf]

The important thing is that Battlefront and the Developer (Fury Software) are getting the lion's share of the money, and not the distributor and EBGames.

I wouldn't mind digital download, but I don't mind paying a bit more for a nice manual and a box.

[Moon]

Am I right if I say that you have nothing against an invidual retail store buying multiple copies of the game when it is released and selling them locally? I mean if they pay the full price? Ofcourse this is not a good deal for retail stores except if they want to provide a service to buy the game without online payment.

Sure. Anybody can order a number of games from our webstore and re-sell them. The store that does that (and we have a handful worldwide that do) saves money on S&H, because each additional product above the first one only costs $1 in S&H.

You are going to have a number lock on the CD case, aren't you?

You'll be able to copy the CD as much as you want, but won't be able to play the game without verification.

I wouldn't mind digital download, but I don't mind paying a bit more for a nice manual and a box.

You'll be able to get both, as we're not going to give up the concept of printed manuals. So one of the options you'll have is to download the game right away once it's out, and wait on the manual (and backup cd if you want) which will arrive by mail.

Martin

[Justanotherwargamer]

"You'll be able to copy the CD as much as you want, but won't be able to play the game without verification."

About %^$$%#^ time I saw more signs of a company that had more brain cells than titles

Glad to hear you are using methods that don't say "screw you" to a paying customer.

Yeah serials ain't perfect, but serials don't normally translate into "I ain't paying for your game but will download it, because you use a well known obnoxious method of copy protection".

But as you guys are warming to digital download, I am encouraged.

Was beginning to tire of thinking the only company that has a clue was Matrix Games.

Glad to hear BF can be added to the list of companies that actually have a clue what they are doing (beyond being able to make the game initially).

It's simply not enough to know how to code a game so the armour rating of an old tank is perceived as correct.

Releasing a product properly also takes skill.

[scottie]

digital download - great idea - so is paying by "SWITCH" .... its not difficult to setup if you already accept credit cards!

[Justanotherwargamer]

"SWITCH"?

Have not encountered that beast yet. Is that set up like Steam? Can you tell me some more about "SWITCH"

[Edwin P.]

Switch is a common method of payment used in the United Kingdom. Essentially its a debit card.

[Liam]

Retail is handy for Getting your Product out there. Depending on what your product is. SC would sell a lot if Retailed, but there isn't a lot of WarGamers anymore.

I know that I sold a product personally and the Net was too small to advertise, so I accepted a 15 or 25% of the profit from the Product. It sounds horrid, but I'd of stop selling 6 years ago an I wasn't selling that many to locals or Net souls... I doubled and tripled profits by suggesting 10 years ago Retailing and mass marketing to the Boss and I took a share of it...

For this game, it's likely true what they say, if they could see double that figure sold, 45 thousand to 90 thousand. They'd likely Retail Box it up and go with a Mass Distribution and lose the full profit........ It's not more work for you then, it's given to a WholeSaler and they cut you in... Like a book... If you Re-Produce yourself, Market Yourself, and Sell-ship it yourself you make a Larger portion but you don't sell as much. Something I think hurts the Pride of Developer when he loses a large portion of his profit to Middle Men, the actual fact of Massive Wholesale Disbribution.

I prefer smaller companies who make what I want. To big companies, who get impersonal and give you what the Masses want. Why I bother hanging out at the BF Boards even though the game I want is not quite out yet I will backorder her or I would love to Digital Download her.. Whichever is safe for the company, they have to profit. You offer a File over Digital Download, likely going to be a Security Issue. I have lost Many Thousands of Dollars to a lack of Security. Everyone Illegally Reproduces, distributes, etc.. your stuff... You'd need to pay for a very very expensive Write Protection-Password-etc... system like Microsoft games have to stop it. Some Digital Download games have their own Protection. Some games from very special Genres don't need it, they make their game 500 Megs big for the Installation, that stops much Thievery...Make it even bigger that way you can't easily File Swap it On-line

I'd really like the INSTANT GRATIFICATION

but I guess I'll wait for a Shipping. Bahhhhhh, I'm a Now Generation Person.. I want it all and I want it NOWWWWWWWWWW Good luck Guys... See you in the arena, you can count my Stats as I Topple your weak Strategies and Tactics

[scottie]

sorry, as EdwinP said, SWITCH is a debit card (i guess its just UK based) - i think SOLO may be european equivelent. I dont believe in credit, hence dont have a credit card. Makes it a tad more difficult to purchase SC2 ........ not accepting debit card surly alienates a percentage of the target market ?

[Justanotherwargamer]

"Retail is handy for Getting your Product out there."

That depends, if all you want is to "get your product out there" then upload it to a newsgroup, and it sure will "get out there"

Retail shelf provides a sort of persistent form of advertisement, but consider the cost, you have to nearly give it away for them to accept it. The point of making a product is to make money off of it, not to allow retail to make money off of it.

If the EB Games chain wants to make a lot of money off of games, maybe the EB Games ownership should try making their own bloody game hehe

The product advertisement angle can be done, it's all a matter of the how.

Bandwidth isn't free. I wonder, would BF consider submitting their demo to the P2P scene?

Let the P2P networks should the cost of the bandwidth eh. BF is giving it away free anyway.

Shipping out a stack of disks with the demos of the company on launch day to a popular software magazine might be an idea. One shipment in a sizeable batch wouldn't cost a fortune (cds are not THAT expensive after all).

[Liam]

Hmmm, Well, I see bias here. Retail stores are for Civ 4. They sell a Million because they don't care about Retailing, it's not worth it to them. Sid will make enough... He cannot Retail Millions himself and he has a special deal if his last game sold Millions, you know that. He gets better than Average Joe's Game Release.

A Specialty game. Different story. Though I think it would honestly sell 25 thousand copies on every shelf just in the USA. Not likely worth it. No special deals, no great Market. Although I have picked up Strategic Command in a GamePack of 3 at Babbages.. That was couple years after it's release. Most people will never know the game exists. Bundling it's existence in Magazines as a Demo is wise ! not so many hardcore Wargaming Magazine Writers out there but possible

Offering the Demo for Download on More sites is wise. I didn't know of SC, till I "searched through a mysterious Demo site"

People Rarely Download 500 Meg games. Or better yet 1.2 Gig Games or larger use 2 CDs make the EXE file bigger and force Music and Graphics in the download. About 1 in 50 internet users have the bandwidth to do that. And people will just Mail out copies to their buddies before going through that. You know hard it is to transfer a 1 gig file on Kazaa? Or any other P2P site, now most of those sites are wiser and are charging for Downloading Games... 1 Gig game would take half a Day, you'd never get it in this life

[ColumbusOHGamer]

I like the excitement of checking the mailbox while waiting for the game to arrive. Gets me all hyped up when it finally arrives.

Besides, what's a couple days waiting for the post office to deliver when compared to waiting a couple years for the game to be finished??

[Exel]

Internet buy would be my preference too, especially if the game was a tad cheaper that way (no printed manuals, discs, packaging or shipping - would make sense, no?).