Why was/is Russia so bitter?

[jon_j_rambo]

Just got done watching a special on Joseph Stalin on the History Channel International. Why was Russia so bitter against the USA in 1945? Doesn't make sense. We are a small country on the other side of the planet, we helped them in the war, & had no beef with them. And what does Russia do? Start a cold war with us. Dumb.

Now today, what's up with Russia? Why do they wrestle with us politically? What did we ever do to Russia? Good grief.

[Kuniworth]

Read George Orwell's the animal farm. THe best book about Stalin.

[jon_j_rambo]

Two legs good, four legs better? So Stalin is a pig?

[Hyazinth von Strachwitz]

I think they had (and still have) severe problems in their society... and creating a conflict with USA and the western allies basically came from two reasons in my eyes:

(1) Spread Communism

The USSR wanted to spread communism over the whole world, and the USA wanted to avoid that. As you know of course the wars in Korea and Vietnam were basically communism against the western world. Much of the strategical thinkings of the US between 1945 and 1950 was about how to prevent the Sowjets from getting more power.. just think of McCarthy.

(2) Creating an enemy to keep people busy

In my eyes Russia never reached the industrialization level as western Europe or the USA.. in other words: the country is poor. Many people didn`t have a job and proper meals, and with sending all the soldier home after WW2 they would have had a massive unemployment problem... and more people would look on the problems in the society. As long as everyone fights against a deadly enemy, people don`t care of social problems.. but if they sit at home and have nothing to eat, they get nasty.

It is a very common strategy for dictatorships to start a war, if they have problems in their interior.... just watch what Saddam did.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Two legs good, four legs better? So Stalin is a pig?

Check out the last pages, the beauty of the story lays there. The animals(the people) were betrayed and in the end - what was the difference from the human oppression in form of the farmer Jones?

Same with Stalin, the communist state grudually became a power-hungry state who sacrificed more and more of their ideals in a race for benifit for the elite.

In the animal farm the other human farmers gradually accept that the animals(people) can run a farm. That is of some bother in the beginning but eventually what matter is the trade with the farm. No in the end, what become the problem is arguing over trade between the different farms. It boils down to economics, and the book ends with the animals looking on the quarrel between the pigs and humans and can't tell the difference.

Very true, communism betrayed itself. But more over, the people who died for freedom from the tsar and dreamt of a better world were also betrayed of the communistic leadership.

This is one of the best satirical litterature about modern politics. Read it, it's not that many pages, you can read it in 1-2 hours.

For you who wants to read it and dont wanna find out all the characters I can give you some help:

Boxer the Horse - Russian people

Napoleon - Stalin

Snowball - Trotsky

Frederick - Hitler

The crow - the orthodox church

[Blashy]

Lenin and Stalin were never interested in communism. They were dictators plain and simple.

And just like every other country... greed and power was their focus.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Hyazinth von Strachwitz:

I think they had (and still have) severe problems in their society... and creating a conflict with USA and the western allies basically came from two reasons in my eyes:

(1) Spread Communism

The USSR wanted to spread communism over the whole world, and the USA wanted to avoid that. As you know of course the wars in Korea and Vietnam were basically communism against the western world. Much of the strategical thinkings of the US between 1945 and 1950 was about how to prevent the Sowjets from getting more power.. just think of McCarthy.

(2) Creating an enemy to keep people busy

In my eyes Russia never reached the industrialization level as western Europe or the USA.. in other words: the country is poor. Many people didn`t have a job and proper meals, and with sending all the soldier home after WW2 they would have had a massive unemployment problem... and more people would look on the problems in the society. As long as everyone fights against a deadly enemy, people don`t care of social problems.. but if they sit at home and have nothing to eat, they get nasty.

It is a very common strategy for dictatorships to start a war, if they have problems in their interior.... just watch what Saddam did.

Well I think you are both wrong and right,

1. the spread communism theory is not entirly accurate. They wanted to spread the "Soviet-dominance" without care for the poor countries. This was one of the reasons China split with USSR, Mao wanted to actively with military might defend the poor countries of the third world, why as the soviet leadership more focused on good or bad for the soviet state.

Much of the split in communist movements come from this, should focus be on soviet vs whatever or poor vs rich countries?

In the end China has ended up just like the animal farm. A capitalistic dictatorship, which in the long run wont be able to hold back the people's will for freedom.

2. Very true - communism always need an enemy.

Basic problem with communists are that they never realise that socialism can only exist when the people are free to chose that path for themself(eg democracy).

That's what make Venezuela so interesting. Hugo Chavez is a man that can be debated a lot, but he has through elections a clear mandate from the people to socialize the oil-industry and spend the money on schools and food for the poor.

That's more socialism and the whole of soviet union and China's communism put together.

If Chavez will continue this democrativ way or be more of a dictator is up for speculation. Some tendencies are not encouraging.

[ August 07, 2007, 05:59 AM: Message edited by: Kuniworth ]

[jon_j_rambo]

@Kuni --- You really think the elections in Venezuela are legit? Even Iraq had elections, Saddam somehow always won.

My thing w/ Russia is how they turned the USA into an enemy. I just don't get why they'd be so scared of the USA, we are basically an island to them. We shipped them all those weapons...well, guess we just became temporary friends because of a mutual enemy (Germany).

The smarter thing for the USA, would have just let the Germans & Russians go at it a little longer. The USA is strange, why are we suddenly buddies with India today? Yes, I understand greed for today's labor, but why give them military secerts?

[Blashy]

The Venezuelan elections were monitored by all the major election watching organizations in the world, even the well renowned Jimmy Carter organization.

ALL of them without exception have stated the elections were legit.

Anyways, he does not need to cheat to win, he simply needs to say he will help the poor and the people of his country and not cater to resource robbing corporations who care nothing for the people. He got elected once on that platform and went ahead to help the poor immensely and so winning follow up elections and referendums were not that difficult when the majority of the country is very poor.

[Blashy]

Russia was well aware USA was the new super power and was very much against the Soviet dictatorship.

As you stated, they had a common enemy in WW2.

India: Greed is why they give military secrets. Corporations push politicians to give in to some of their demands so they can have access to India's population so they can exploit them heavily with no care for their well being.

[Lars]

Originally posted by Blashy:

The Venezuelan elections were monitored by all the major election watching organizations in the world, even the well renowned Jimmy Carter organization.

ALL of them without exception have stated the elections were legit.

Anyways, he does not need to cheat to win, he simply needs to say he will help the poor and the people of his country and not cater to resource robbing corporations who care nothing for the people. He got elected once on that platform and went ahead to help the poor immensely and so winning follow up elections and referendums were not that difficult when the majority of the country is very poor.

Oh, you're soooo deluded on this one, Blashy. Been following it.

Chavez seeks end to term limits

All Hail El Presidente For Life!!!

[jon_j_rambo]

Jimmy Carter SUX. He has lost his mind, never had a brain. Worst President ever. His "testimony" within the Southern Baptist Convention is rather weak. Maybe he's saved, maybe he's not.

Chavez seems a little extreme. Just sell us the oil.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Lars:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Blashy:

The Venezuelan elections were monitored by all the major election watching organizations in the world, even the well renowned Jimmy Carter organization.

ALL of them without exception have stated the elections were legit.

Anyways, he does not need to cheat to win, he simply needs to say he will help the poor and the people of his country and not cater to resource robbing corporations who care nothing for the people. He got elected once on that platform and went ahead to help the poor immensely and so winning follow up elections and referendums were not that difficult when the majority of the country is very poor.

Oh, you're soooo deluded on this one, Blashy. Been following it.

Chavez seeks end to term limits

All Hail El Presidente For Life!!! </font>

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Jimmy Carter SUX. He has lost his mind, never had a brain. Worst President ever. His "testimony" within the Southern Baptist Convention is rather weak. Maybe he's saved, maybe he's not.

Chavez seems a little extreme. Just sell us the oil.

Chavez made some disturbing statements, he seem to enjoy to poke USA in the eye(well who does'nt lol)

Anyway he was elected completly legit(all international observers confirm this) and has continued his socialization of the oil industry to give back to the poor.

Nothing wrong with democracy in Venezuela. On the contrary it's Chavez political opponents who have acted illegal.

What is interesting though is to see how Chavez will continue.

[Lars]

Er, that's not quite what the Carter Report says Kuni.

They did find serious flaws, and were unable to audit the results. They just decided not to contest the results.

Since the first election however, things have gone completely down the crapper.

[targul]

We were well warned that by using the Atomic Bomb in Japan we would probably start some sort of conflict with Russia.

We did not inform the Russian that we had and where dropping that weapon. The advisors informed the President that failure to inform Russia would make relations with them bad.

The president not only wanted to end the war with Japan but wished to also make a statement to Russia about our power so he dropped the bomb.

The statement came in loud and clear to the Russians.

Each war produces another war. We make mistakes and abide or fail to abide by agreements that cause more actions.

I wont try to second guess that action based on the result in Russia since I am unaware of what might have happened had we not given them the demonstration.

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Jimmy Carter SUX. He has lost his mind, never had a brain. Worst President ever.

Ohh no ! There's far worse, and he's just in charge right now !! :eek: :eek: :mad: :mad:

(couldn't resist replying to that, sorry !)

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Lars:

Er, that's not quite what the Carter Report says Kuni.

They did find serious flaws, and were unable to audit the results. They just decided not to contest the results.

Since the first election however, things have gone completely down the crapper.

I'm not sure what you are saying. Carter has never contested that Chavez won the election in 2004. Where did you read that?

Carter is very hard critizising the opposition for their beahaviour.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by targul:

We did not inform the Russian that we had and where dropping that weapon. The advisors informed the President that failure to inform Russia would make relations with them bad.

The president not only wanted to end the war with Japan but wished to also make a statement to Russia about our power so he dropped the bomb.

Russians.

No, USA informed Stalin about the atomic bomb at the potsdam conference in july 1945.

[jon_j_rambo]

What was Russia's plan for Europe? How much of Germany did they want? Wasn't there some Yalta conference or something?

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Lars:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Blashy:

The Venezuelan elections were monitored by all the major election watching organizations in the world, even the well renowned Jimmy Carter organization.

ALL of them without exception have stated the elections were legit.

Anyways, he does not need to cheat to win, he simply needs to say he will help the poor and the people of his country and not cater to resource robbing corporations who care nothing for the people. He got elected once on that platform and went ahead to help the poor immensely and so winning follow up elections and referendums were not that difficult when the majority of the country is very poor.

Oh, you're soooo deluded on this one, Blashy. Been following it.

Chavez seeks end to term limits

All Hail El Presidente For Life!!! </font>

[Lars]

Originally posted by Kuniworth:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lars:

Er, that's not quite what the Carter Report says Kuni.

They did find serious flaws, and were unable to audit the results. They just decided not to contest the results.

Since the first election however, things have gone completely down the crapper.

I'm not sure what you are saying. Carter has never contested that Chavez won the election in 2004. Where did you read that?</font>

[Lars]

Originally posted by Blashy:

Yep and he needs a 2/3rds majority to get it done. AND he said he would also have a public referendum on it. Sounds like a pretty democratic process to me.

Sure, sounds like it.

Pretty easy to get 2/3rds when you have driven out your opposition and packed the Parliment with your cronies.

Now all he needs to do is to burn it down and get his enabling acts through.

[Micheal Wittman]

This may answer your question "why is Russia so bitter"

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=2731324572264276874&q=dr+strangelove&total=264&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2

and here's the outcome.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-4387958698784997797&q=dr+strangelove&total=264&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

I have a crazy Russian friend Yuri and if there is a nation of Yuris I can see why they have some issues LOL>

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Lars:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Blashy:

Yep and he needs a 2/3rds majority to get it done. AND he said he would also have a public referendum on it. Sounds like a pretty democratic process to me.

Sure, sounds like it.

Pretty easy to get 2/3rds when you have driven out your opposition and packed the Parliment with your cronies.

Now all he needs to do is to burn it down and get his enabling acts through. </font>