The Green Man comes back with a vengeance !!! AAR Terif (allies) - Hellraiser(axis)

[Blashy]

The only way to take Leningrad ASAP is massive air, if you can't do it, you don't go for it IMO.

Of course the key as always is cutting off the caucussus, which was the idea of Axis commanders but dumbass Hitler (good for us) was psychotic over Stalingrad.

[hellraiser]

"Axis bought too many airfleets for their mpps"

4 air is not much. In fact I think this is the number Axis is comfy with. You need good and experienced AFs to crack positions like Leningrad without losing land units strength points.

I tell you what happened: Axis never bothered to RTFM. I guess I need to print a copy and start reading it

That's why I was surprised to see you could buy units at half price, that IT and PT are paramount in SC2, you get the point

I hate reading manuals, I like to get into the middle of things but this time, I really gotta read it

[Sombra]

Originally posted by Terif:

August 10, 1941:

I guess for Egypt the readiness triggers need to be reconsidered and improved in one of the next patches. Since otherwise either Axis will simply leave Cairo empty till USA joins to not increase its readiness, or there needs to be another house rule .

Yep its quite a strong trigger 5-10% increase per round if you take Cairo???

I would like to know why is Cairo important historically for the US?

If there is a good reason for this trigger then I think the trigger should be changed to the way the english sealion trigger works. If you stand beside Cairo it could be activated.

I would like to prevent houserules if possible.

[ April 19, 2006, 02:20 AM: Message edited by: Sombra ]

[hellraiser]

Sombra, it is not a per turn increase. It is a one time bump only - I guess Blashy answered to this question I posted some days ago.

I don't mind it for the US, UK being their natural allies anyway. But Russia?

[Sombra]

Hellraiser RTFM please take a look at Page 139 of the Manual:

USA => Allies : Activation 3 event (Egypt surrenders to Axis ) general activation event 5-10% increase per turn in activation of US toward Allies.

[ April 19, 2006, 02:09 AM: Message edited by: Sombra ]

[Terif]

Yep, 4 AFs is usually not too much - only added the "too much AF" point after you mentioned that yourself at ICQ in our analysis .

So, after some online experience and discussions there are certainly some things that need to be covered by houserules - at least until they are patched .

At the moment I will for the time beeing propose the following house rules for my future games:

1. No allied DoW to USA allowed. Rome gambit forbidden (i.e. no attack at Rome in the first turn of DoW)

2. Italy, USA and Russia are not allowed to move transports or ships away from their coast before they are at war. Exception: Italy is allowed to move transports and ships from port to port.

3. Axis has to take Cairo as soon as possible after they defeated the defenders.

P.S.

@Sombra: manual still contains some errors/ is not up to date in some points - if you look in the scripts, it is a one time event .

[ April 19, 2006, 02:34 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[Liam]

4 airfleets too much, I have to agree with Terif!

I bought 5 in my game, and nevertheless I could use every 1 I'd rather of had that put into tech!

Certianly I killed off say 5 or 8 extra Allied units in the East due to it and 3 or 4 in the West but ultimately I'm losing the game. I didn't think that 5 would be too much initially and I thought that I had plenty of Land Units till I started losing them and trying replace them.

Airfleets are good to take cities in Russia and to defend France

4 airfleets max, 3 very very experienced ones... If USA joins in with an Air War perhaps more... The difference in my opinion with air is it also can strike land units but with amphibious units and without LR, your air on the coast is vulnerable to suicide corps or armies if you around a resource or port.. It's not the game it use to be! You can't hide as well as before but you still can.

My biggest Error was that I didn't properly arrange my soldats I triggered Siberians too early and I didn't take Norway. I thought the free Iron Ore Shipments and the less RR and US R was better than the Country itself, foolish... I really could've used that barrier. Also foolish use of my Baltic fleet making the Baltic Vulnerable that at least you need if you do not goto Scandanavia.. and in this game Finland is very difficult to hold with a determined Ruskie.

All and all in my game I'm approaching 1945 and France is still German and I'm 2 hexes from Moscow but the change is now this. I'm down to 1/2 the production of my opponent and I lagged long enough with Tech that abandoning the Russian Front means imminent Death.

[Liam]

Lastly: CAIRO, Not a good houserule I purpose this, if the MPPs are still going into UK pockets and the UK can hit and run with all it's firepower we do this.. UK cannot DOW Ireland or Portugal after USA/USSR Enters.

Those are two gamey locations that are purely for more MPPs...

[hellraiser]

Terif's rules are just common sense. It's something I had insisted upon before the game even shipped.

One addition though - italians are allowed to move the ships to protect possible landing sites; they are forbidden though to block the Greece-Tobruk sea passage while still neutral or block approaches to allied ports in the Med.

They could use another trick which kinda circumvents these rules - hide ships in the Med to force delays in allied troops shipping due to surprise encounter.

That's why I would reccomend the italian ships to be allowed strictly to protect possible landing sites in their empire.

@Liam - your addition doesn't make sense to me, really. No offense.

Axis can employ this gamey move of delaying the capture of Egypt even if the city is deserted with the sole purpose of keeping the majors' readiness down - not fair imho.

Not allowing UK to DOW minors? What's the purpose of that? It can even take away a strategic option - well, kinda risky, like Iberic invasion LOL

Axis have a lot of MPP gamey spots to capture as well

[hellraiser]

Anyway, some considerations and lessons learned from the game played vs Terif.

1. RTFM (for those who don't know is read the f*cking manual) Really, before entering into H2H with a well prepared oponent, it's the wisest thing to do. There are a lot of new things, tricks, rules that need a bit of study. In our game, Terif had a clear edge not only from the strategical/tactical planning but also game mechanics itself.

2. As Axis, do not get fooled by the initial might of the german wehrmacht. They're tough for kicking the butts of french, minors even UK at this stage but consider to expand greatly the army - a few high teched, crack armies/tanks will be no match for the low supply areas and bad weather of the USSR plus the red hordes lying in ambush ... You need a very large army, good techs - in Russia things are a lot different.

To be able to get a large force you must invest in IT and PT. No IT, you're 90% dead. Simply as that. I did the mistake to ignore this aspect and I was defeated in like 10 turns after Barbarossa.

You need numbers here. Tech alone won't help you.

Thing long term - you need to be able to compete with the allied MPPs, you do not, you lose. Relying on an 1941 capaign to knock Russia out of the war is a dangerous dream

The territory in east is huge, danger can come every way - you need troops to cover the gained ground. Do not overspend on air assets - as Terif pointed out, you do not need much air this game, it is a 'ground war' game. You need some 3-4 AFs to be able to crack open some tough tiles. You can buy a bomber if you want and if you have certain strategy in mind. But no more 6-10 AFs, that's history.

Do not get impatient if you have to wait until spring 40 to attack Benelux and France. After Poland you can operate units to west but after getting Benelux it is more than likely that bad weather will postpone your french campaign till 40 so it may be wiser not to spend cash on operating but manually transfer them to west - it is no game breaker, it is just an ideea, you can play both ways.

Cash is low...damn low. Get your IT and PT levels up otherwise Russia / USA will swarm you. Again, you need big numbers, lots of troops needed, you need to buy them cheaper. Think twice if you really want to operate that army from tile A to tile B for XX mpps ... those XX mpps maybe the exact amount you miss to buy that turn a tank, which take 6 months to produce, and will be ready in time for Russia...

After the initial strike in Russia, do not push forward without adequate supply else you'll be headcracked by lurking red armies/tanks from high supply areas like Moscow, Kharkow.

Keep in mind that scorched earth works both ways now-so instead of fighting to keep a contiguous front line, you may think to retreat to your higher supply areas to be able to counterattack with minimal losses. Exactly what happened in my game vs Terif -> he counterattacked me starting from his high supply areas and mauled my entire frontline, poorly supplied - partisans in Byelorussia and crusiers bombarding Odessa , kept my cities below 5 strength, thus my supply sucked. Instead of foolishly defending my conquered land, I retreated back to Koenigsberg - Warsaw, to MY high supply areas, and when he reached the border, his supply sucked this time, allowing me to mount a series of succesful counterattacks, killing a lot of his spearheads. Unfortunately despite this, I was too low on cash (no IT, no PT) to continue the game.

As Axis - get the mid east. Leaving Africa to the UK is too dangerous. Even if it impedes a little bit on your Barbarossa, take Africa. I think Terif seconds me on that. With some IT and PT, probably Barbarossa won't suffer much.

[Liam]

You're wrong, in some areas. Terif beat you because he bled you dry in Egypt, that's why you lost. Also he had wonderful tech in Russia. You will suffer for the first Winter, but you have to pull back, rally and prepare for the next Summer offensive. In my current game vs Rambo, no different than yours, I'm so far behind in tech it's not even funny, it wasn't till '43 that I achieved on par tech with a nation that's supposed to start behind Germany in all categories. Germany Had Panzer Mark IIIs in use in France in '40, even some Mark IVs... yet starts with only Panzers IIs this needs to be corrected, for the whole game I had Panzer IIs till the last 6 months... I've endured and successfully assualted Russia 3 seperate Summers. Granted I should have been able to, it's Rambo's inexperience that has allowed me this. Though he did get lucky with Tech.. and I didn't invest enough early enough. I invested just "some" thinking it was enough and not in the right areas. I came in with a lot of Armor and a lot of Fighters and 5 HQs and I built up 10 plus Armies and I got my ass served to me by the First Winter... After that I never had the full Power of the Wermacht. The reason being, he had IW 3 in '42 and I IW1.....He also had more units than myself... Now UK had done so poorly that I have survived or else I'd be dead. Had I shot for Leningrad and taken Scandanavia the game would've shifted the other way likely. I learned.

I did not wait I took Cairo, but if it costs you 500 or 750 MPPs in your case, likely all the Plunder you got France, Poland Norway Denmark and Benelux combined you will be in grave trouble. Someone will need to learn to perform a true Sea Lion in this case if the UK commits fully to Egypt

What will you have left with bad weather in '40 France, as I did 5 months of it, then couldn't get to Egypt and in position till Winter...then boot out the UK by '41 Spring or Summer? How then will you kill Russia?

Winter Effect in 1941 is really sucky, You lose all your Supply, you best retreat back before it hits.. I got that and Siberians lost just 2 units I believe... It's not so bad Russian Supply in SC2, in SC1 it was worse, there isn't so many partisans and you can link HQs to the depths of Russia..... I firmly believe I'd of killed of Rambo in Russia with Heavy Tanks and had I predicted the power of AWs...Plus I didn't organize my HQs, a little too jumpy.......Siberians were triggered on time all foolish

Perhaps the Deal here should be, DATED

1941 Spring Egypt can be delayed instead of taken

1940 Egypt must Surrender to Axis

If Sea Lion is undergone then well, who cares

Originally posted by hellraiser:

Anyway, some considerations and lessons learned from the game played vs Terif.

1. RTFM (for those who don't know is read the f*cking manual) Really, before entering into H2H with a well prepared oponent, it's the wisest thing to do. There are a lot of new things, tricks, rules that need a bit of study. In our game, Terif had a clear edge not only from the strategical/tactical planning but also game mechanics itself.

2. As Axis, do not get fooled by the initial might of the german wehrmacht. They're tough for kicking the butts of french, minors even UK at this stage but consider to expand greatly the army - a few high teched, crack armies/tanks will be no match for the low supply areas and bad weather of the USSR plus the red hordes lying in ambush ... You need a very large army, good techs - in Russia things are a lot different.

To be able to get a large force you must invest in IT and PT. No IT, you're 90% dead. Simply as that. I did the mistake to ignore this aspect and I was defeated in like 10 turns after Barbarossa.

You need numbers here. Tech alone won't help you.

Thing long term - you need to be able to compete with the allied MPPs, you do not, you lose. Relying on an 1941 capaign to knock Russia out of the war is a dangerous dream

The territory in east is huge, danger can come every way - you need troops to cover the gained ground. Do not overspend on air assets - as Terif pointed out, you do not need much air this game, it is a 'ground war' game. You need some 3-4 AFs to be able to crack open some tough tiles. You can buy a bomber if you want and if you have certain strategy in mind. But no more 6-10 AFs, that's history.

Do not get impatient if you have to wait until spring 40 to attack Benelux and France. After Poland you can operate units to west but after getting Benelux it is more than likely that bad weather will postpone your french campaign till 40 so it may be wiser not to spend cash on operating but manually transfer them to west - it is no game breaker, it is just an ideea, you can play both ways.

Cash is low...damn low. Get your IT and PT levels up otherwise Russia / USA will swarm you. Again, you need big numbers, lots of troops needed, you need to buy them cheaper. Think twice if you really want to operate that army from tile A to tile B for XX mpps ... those XX mpps maybe the exact amount you miss to buy that turn a tank, which take 6 months to produce, and will be ready in time for Russia...

After the initial strike in Russia, do not push forward without adequate supply else you'll be headcracked by lurking red armies/tanks from high supply areas like Moscow, Kharkow.

Keep in mind that scorched earth works both ways now-so instead of fighting to keep a contiguous front line, you may think to retreat to your higher supply areas to be able to counterattack with minimal losses. Exactly what happened in my game vs Terif -> he counterattacked me starting from his high supply areas and mauled my entire frontline, poorly supplied - partisans in Byelorussia and crusiers bombarding Odessa , kept my cities below 5 strength, thus my supply sucked. Instead of foolishly defending my conquered land, I retreated back to Koenigsberg - Warsaw, to MY high supply areas, and when he reached the border, his supply sucked this time, allowing me to mount a series of succesful counterattacks, killing a lot of his spearheads. Unfortunately despite this, I was too low on cash (no IT, no PT) to continue the game.

As Axis - get the mid east. Leaving Africa to the UK is too dangerous. Even if it impedes a little bit on your Barbarossa, take Africa. I think Terif seconds me on that. With some IT and PT, probably Barbarossa won't suffer much.

[Sombra]

Originally posted by Liam:

jumpy.......Siberians were triggered on time all foolish

Regarding siberians I hated it in SC1 that the axis could chose when to trigger the Siberian.

Possible to add officially a time trigger which triggers the Siberians ramdomly after for example 1944 or something if they haven´t been triggered before? I don´t know right now if it is really an issue for Sc2 but just in case because in SC1 you could perform very well defend your homeland and as a reward you got nothing (Please not the almighty editor and do it yourself because I want this event mainly for Human vs Human)

[hellraiser]

@Liam - you did nto follow the AAR carefully enough

The first thing it crossed my mind after getting the game and launched it the first time was 'Egyp+SL' strategy for Axis. I wrote in the AAR that I had wanted to go for a long game for various reasons - I pointed out that a SL would have been feasible in my game. Terif's all out defence of Egypt had its risks, obviously.

Not that the game would be over, Russians can be tough, but you have a relative safety in the west IMHO.

The conclusions drawn after my game vs Terif are more valuable to me, as a learner of SC2, than a succesful Egypt + SL invasion. Yoda must have drawn the conclusion that this all out defence of Egypt bears some inherent risks and may not play the same way next time, who knows?

The competition has not started yet, ppl are learning In SC 1 Yoda was guru, in SC 2 so far, he is just a good player to me - who will be the guru of SC2? I dunno, perhaps him, perhaps Rambo, perhaps you?

[Kuniworth]

I always thought Condor was one of the best. If he got the patience for it with Zappsweden and Dragonheart MIA, he will be a real threat to the top notch. Condor's biggest problem is the stamina, to stay on the top you need to play regulary. This guy drops out for periods and then come back rusty.

[Basler]

Nice AAR ,loved to read it

[Desert Dave]

And so,

not Kafka's K,

You are determined to perpetuate

The idyl Idol dreams

Of the Ancien Regime, eh?

It's another day.

A TOTALLY different game.

My best guess?

Somebody who

NOBODY has ever even heard of!

Will... rise right up,

Break on through.

Not to mention,

Some weren't as competitive

In the distant past,

Could suddenly appear

As though from out of the blue?

I would hold off on announcing who

Is, or, will be!

Top Cat. :cool:

That way, you won't have to retract

Your inaccurate predictions

Later.

Can't wait for that first

North America VS Euro's

Match-play.

[... is rambo jr still wearing

the Captain hat?]

I suspect there will indeed be

Some definite re-arranging of

How the Old Guard is ordered.

[Konigs]

Great AAR, thanks for posting guys...

[Fubarno]

I enjoyed reading this AAR. Terif, you're a bloody genius SC player. (I'm sure your mom is quite proud )

[Fartknock3r]

Good job to the both of you! It felt so good reading that after a boring book im reading for my class. Good job hellraiser, good job Terif, i've learned a lot through this AAR. You'll get him next time hellraiser!

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Desert Dave:

My best guess?

Somebody who

NOBODY has ever even heard of!

Will... rise right up,

Break on through.

I keep my bet on Terif. You can keep on dreamin ole wise poet.

[Blashy]

Until someone studies the game the way Terif enjoys doing so, I'll say no.

With that said, SC2 has more variables so the field will be more even.

[Codename Condor]

Originally posted by Kuniworth:

I always thought Condor was one of the best. If he got the patience for it with Zappsweden and Dragonheart MIA, he will be a real threat to the top notch. Condor's biggest problem is the stamina, to stay on the top you need to play regulary. This guy drops out for periods and then come back rusty.

Hey dumbass, i told u to post it in a new thread, im only givin u 5 bucks of the 10 promised.