Dutch army

[KillerTomato]

Hi

In my game against axis AI my Dutch army survided at strength 2 against brutal nazi power. On my turn I evacuated it from Rotterdam to London. To my disappointment the army vanished after the surrender of Benelux. Isn't it more realistic if it would stay in game? Germans would then have to disable the port or risk a fleeying army.

anyone agrees?

Cheers Tomato

[Blashy]

That is an iffy topic.

But in reality, when Denmark was conquered, true some troops were probably in UK still figthing, but I doubt it is in the number that a corps represents in SC2's scale. a corps at STR 1 could be about 10k troops.

[KillerTomato]

Uhmmmm what do you mean by iffy?

BTW Dutch is NOT Denmark but The Netherlands

anyway, i guess you might be right about the number of troops vs the sc2 scale

[Hugh Hefner]

Speaking of evacuation, I seem to recall being able to evacuate armies in SC I when there was no port present (unless I'm thinking of another game). This would enable you to re-create something like Dunkirk.

I looked for the evacuate command when my invasion of Sicily the other day failed to take the port and my army was stuck there. Is there a way to evacuate without a port?

[KillerTomato]

Hi Hugh

As far as i know this is not an option. Neither was it in SC1

Tomato

[Cheese Panzer]

From an SC2 programming stand point ALL nations forces are removed when they surrender. Free French forces are the exception - no other nation is able to do this. And this is still not an agreed option - you'll notice that there is an option to turn it off!

For a number of reasons a Dutch/Belgian evacuation/revival is extremely unlikely. First, even if the army survives on the map, I can't imagine the Dutch/Belgian governments allowing their armies to be removed from defending the nation. Historically they were shattered so fast in 1940 that evacuation wasn't an option.

Even if they had been evacuated many if not most of the troops would have opted to quit fighting and go home. The Dutch still had colonial poseesion in Asia which I'm sure were reinforced, but the Belgians pretty much had no place to go and no real reason to keep fighting.

Finally, IIRC the Dutch were using German equipment and Belgians French equipment. It would have been a long time before any large numbers could have been re-equipped with Allied equipment and brought back into fighting strength. Keep in mind that even the largest occupied force available to the Allies (the Free French) weren't even able to put a full divison in the field until 1943 and barely rated a full corps in SC2 terms by 1944.

[Desert Dave]

...(the Free French) weren't even able to put a full divison in the field until 1943 and barely rated a full corps in SC2 terms by 1944.

Not quite accurate, CP.

Free French could, and did field a "full Corps,"

By mid 1942.

[Cheese Panzer]

OK, I know they had a brigade in North Africa ('41-'42), and I thought they had a single division in Italy after Salerno ('43). Where was the corps and how was it organzied? In my (admittedly spotty) reading of the ETO operations I don't recall seeing multi-divisonal French forces deployed until the breakout from Normandy in July of 1944. Or was it organized in 1942 and not committed to combat until 1944?

[Desert Dave]

CP,

Yee of the most delightful CD

(... IE, cognitive dissonance!)

See

The *bumped up" post

Darkness and Light,

So I won't have to elaborate on

Free French stuff

All over again, another

Long day's journey into night, LOL!

[Gérard Le Poer Trench]

There where at least 30 Polish, 10 Belgium, 15 Dutch, 40 French and 3 Norse divisions in England after Fall Gelb. The odd thing about every country that Netherlands, Belgium and France surrender for they still existed in Africa (Congo for Belgium, Southern French Colonies for France) and Asia (Netherlands is Indonesia and France in IndoChina). The Dutch fleet was actually almost as large and advanced as the German Kriegmarine.

[Lars]

Huh. A million men. Wonder what they did with them all.

[rleete]

Lost most of them at Market Garden, probably.

[JerseyJohn]

There were large numbers of Polish troops that went on fighting after the fall of their country. Some made their way to France and later to England; there were Polish pilots in the R. A. F. during the Battle of Britain. Other Polish troops were released by Stalin and went to North Africa, fight as part of the 8th Army.

There was a small French Army in Indochina. They remained in garrison duty and didn't attempt to fight the Japanese when they took direct control of the colony. During the war, the U. S. armed and trained the Viet Minh, which under Ho Chi Minh fought the Japanese while the French didn't. FDR promised to support their post war independence (blanket to all people who fought the Axis in Europe, Asia and Africa) but this was renegged upon by Truman, who supported the French claim to Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam. As most of us know, we later fought those same Vietnamese, rechristened the Viet Cong -- something we can't go into without wandering hopelessly off-topic.

Dutch army and naval units fought against the Japanese in the East Indies. Dutch Admiral Dorman was killed leading a doomed Anglo-Dutch-USA fleet in the Battle of the Java Sea, 1942.

Hitler, after finding out what uranium was, claimed the Congo, but never made a move to wrest it from the Belgian garrison there.

As we all know, troops of many nationalities and religions (including independent Jewish units) fought under the British flag, often as part of British Divisions, so it isn't always easy to establish an accurate number of combatants and support personnel who'd fled their homelands.

Additionally, Norway had the fourth largest merchant marine fleet on earth and most of it went to Britain after Germany's invasion. The additional freight carrying capacity made a substantial contribution to the UKs survival.

[Cheese Panzer]

Originally posted by Gérard Le Poer Trench:

There where at least 30 Polish, 10 Belgium, 15 Dutch, 40 French and 3 Norse divisions in England after Fall Gelb. The odd thing about every country that Netherlands, Belgium and France surrender for they still existed in Africa (Congo for Belgium, Southern French Colonies for France) and Asia (Netherlands is Indonesia and France in IndoChina). The Dutch fleet was actually almost as large and advanced as the German Kriegmarine.

I believe you are confusing "platoon" with "division".

The Dutch fleet had nothing larger than 3 small, elderly light cruisers - one of which was so "advanced" it was scuttled as part of the Normandy breakwater just after D-Day, it being more useful as sunken hulk than as a fighting ship.

[Lars]

Originally posted by rleete:

Lost most of them at Market Garden, probably.

Lost them all at Piccadilly Circus more likely.

[JerseyJohn]

Cheese Panzer,

The Dutch had other ships in the Pacific, but you're right, they were obsolescent and none of them larger than light cruisers.

Here's an except from an article that gives the Allied naval strength at the Feb 1942 Battle of the Java Sea -- and Alliead fiasco.

Shortly before the Battle of Java Sea commenced, the odds were not good for the ABDA forces. The Allies were disunited (ships came from four separate navies) and demoralized by constant air attacks and the impending fear of doom. In addition, there was no coordination between Allied navies and air forces. Yet Admiral Doorman vowed to engage the Japanese at all costs.

[edit]

The main action

The Japanese amphibious forces now gathered to strike at Java, and on February 27 1942, the main American-British-Dutch-Australian Command (ABDACOM) naval force, under Doorman, sailed northeast from Surabaya to intercept a convoy approaching from the Makassar Strait. The ABDA force consisted of two heavy cruisers (HMS Exeter, USS Houston) and three light cruisers (HNLMS De Ruyter (Doorman's flagship), HNLMS Java, HMAS Perth), and nine destroyers (HMS Electra, HMS Encounter, HMS Jupiter, HNLMS Kortenaer, HNLMS Witte de With, USS Alden, USS John D. Edwards, USS John D. Ford, USS Pope and USS Paul Jones.

Losses were all five Allied cruisers and five destroyers. The Japanese lost no fighting ships, but four of their ten loaded transports.

[stoat]

Originally posted by Cheese Panzer:

OK, I know they had a brigade in North Africa ('41-'42), and I thought they had a single division in Italy after Salerno ('43). Where was the corps and how was it organzied? In my (admittedly spotty) reading of the ETO operations I don't recall seeing multi-divisonal French forces deployed until the breakout from Normandy in July of 1944. Or was it organized in 1942 and not committed to combat until 1944?

Free French units fought hard in North Africa in battles such as Bir Hachiem. The first French troops in Italy arrived at Naples. It was the 2nd Moroccan Infantry Division, which along with the later arriving 3rd Algerian Infantry Division and support units, made up a Free French Corps led by General Juin.

[stoat]

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Cheese Panzer,

The Dutch had other ships in the Pacific, but you're right, they were obsolescent and none of them larger than light cruisers.

Here's an except from an article that gives the Allied naval strength at the Feb 1942 Battle of the Java Sea -- and Alliead fiasco.

Shortly before the Battle of Java Sea commenced, the odds were not good for the ABDA forces. The Allies were disunited (ships came from four separate navies) and demoralized by constant air attacks and the impending fear of doom. In addition, there was no coordination between Allied navies and air forces. Yet Admiral Doorman vowed to engage the Japanese at all costs.

[edit]

The main action

The Japanese amphibious forces now gathered to strike at Java, and on February 27 1942, the main American-British-Dutch-Australian Command (ABDACOM) naval force, under Doorman, sailed northeast from Surabaya to intercept a convoy approaching from the Makassar Strait. The ABDA force consisted of two heavy cruisers (HMS Exeter, USS Houston) and three light cruisers (HNLMS De Ruyter (Doorman's flagship), HNLMS Java, HMAS Perth), and nine destroyers (HMS Electra, HMS Encounter, HMS Jupiter, HNLMS Kortenaer, HNLMS Witte de With, USS Alden, USS John D. Edwards, USS John D. Ford, USS Pope and USS Paul Jones.

Losses were all five Allied cruisers and five destroyers. The Japanese lost no fighting ships, but four of their ten loaded transports.

The Dutch had 5 light cruisers. HNMS De Ruyter and HNMS Java were sunk in the Pacific, and Java's sister ship HNMS Sumatra was sunk as a blockship. HNMS Tromp and HNMS Jacob van Heemskerck survived the war.

The Dutch also had 14 destroyers, 8 of which were sunk in the Pacific, 4 of which were lost to the Germans, and 2 more which were transferred from the Royal Navy after the fall of France. The Dutch fielded 35 submarines throughout the war, some lost to the Germans, more sunk by the Japanese, but they did serve with distinction.

Late in the war they Dutch Navy even fielded two escort carriers.

[Honch]

I have added a Free Greek, Free Polish, Free Belgian and Free Dutch script to allow 40% chance of naval units switching to the UK and 100% of land units switching (they have to be in UK controlled territory.

I have also added Free France as a separate nation (using the Luxembourg slot) with French Equatorial Africa as an off map hex where they can build units. (very little MPPs though) De Gaulle HQ arrives there in 1940.

I have also added a UK Corps (1st Free Polish) to arrive in Egypt in 1940 as the defense of Egypt in early 1940 was in the hands of mainly Poles, Indians, New Zealanders and some British troops.

If interested in these scripts please email me at dhucul@ipcburnaby.com.

[Guest Mike]

It's probably more accurate to give the UK a small 1-off MPP bonus each time a country falls - maybe 10% of whatever the Axis gets or somethign like that.

These troops did not arrive as formed units - they had to be equipped, reorganised and trained to fight together under teh UK/Commonwealth model.

[Mr.Dozer]

this could fix the plunder issue. The units alive worth plunder goes to UK the units destroyed goes to Axis lol just a 2 second thought.

[Guest Mike]

Or even give units to the UK that have to be built but count as having been destroyed in supply?

[electron libre]

More details about "Forces Francaises Libres" can be found here:

Forces Francaise libres

In summary (since it's in french):

-------------

december 1940:

-------------

-> 7000 mens in UK

-> 17500 mens in Africa

-------------

december 1941:

-------------

-> around 50000 mens in total all over the world.

among them:

-> 1150 in UK

-> 26640 In Asia

-> 5200 in Libya

-> 18000 in other parts of Africa.

-------------

december 1942:

-------------

-> around 70000 mens in total

-------------

december 1943:

-------------

-> 4 divisions in Italy

-> 1 division in Corsica

-> 3 Infantry divisions and 4 Armored divisions in North Africa

-------------

september 1944:

-------------

560 000 mens

-------------

end of 1944:

-------------

1 million mens

among them:

-> 6 Infantry divisions and 3 Armored divisions in Alsace (France).

-> 1 division in Atlantic coast (I guess around the german pockets)

-------------

may 1945:

-------------

1 250 000 mens (to be compared to the 5 000 000 mens from USA, UK and Canada in Europe)

among them:

-> 10 divisions in Germany

-> 3 division in the Alpes

-> 3 divisions in Atlantic coast

So what we can see is that FFL was not really significant in terms of SC2 scale before ~ end 1941,

but then it kept growing before liberation of France which is not really simulated in the game.

So I would suggest some script that would give some Free French units between ~ 1942 and 1944

(may be one corps or 2). It could be triggered by the liberation of Algeria for instance.

[hellraiser]

In sc1 you could get some minor units besides those free french - you could send vichy/spanish troops thru the suez loop (if still allied controlled ofc) and after vicky/spain had surrendered you would still see the corps you sent popping up in Suez. 100% guaranteed conversion not like the free french stuff.

I did not test this xploit in SC2, so I don't know if it is still possible

[KillerTomato]

Wow i love how a simple remark ends up in a historical discussion:D

I'm just concerned about playability. Would be nice if you could evac dutch army. Germans then have to consider taking out the port or through all forces in attack.

anyway, thx for the history lessons