SC2 and the preWW2 editor

[SeaMonkey]

OK guys I've been away for awhile so excuse me if this has been brought up. Since I'm indisposed currently and got a quick moment on my daughter's laptop I wanted to throw this out there for applicability. I've been reading up on viable "what ifs" of WW2 and a question comes to mind about creating a scenario that deals with the preWW2 diplomatic and military situation in Europe with the SC2 editor. The premise is, what if Austria had not been annexed in 1938, and what if the Sudetenland/Czech absorption had not occurred. Does the SC2 editor give the user the ability to create a scenario for a pre Sept 1939 beginning?

[pzgndr]

Good question. The only problem in the SC2 editor is a requirement for a war condition to exist. IE, at least one Axis and Allied major are 100% activated, such as Germany and UK.

We could get around this technicality by starting UK at war with Germany. UK could be well understrength and have to build up, but would do so as an active Allied power. France would be an active neutral, and its war entry dependent on German aggression. So Germany could attack the Austrians and Czechs for plunder and unit experience and risk war, or delay and set a different course. UK meanwhile would continue to grow, and probably at a faster pace than Germany would like. To the point of being quite uppity by 1940 if Germany has remained passive?

The problem is the war condition being a requirement, otherwise you don't really have a game in progress do you? I suspect an early 1939 scenario could work out best because if you extrapolate too far back things may get really odd. Say have a 10-20% chance of France activating early on Czech and a 10-20% chance of not activating on Czech/Poland? That would provide a 60-80% chance of historical war entry. If France doesn't activate, war readiness would continue to be affected by Denmark, Norway, Low Countries, etc. with them joining as Allies or keeping UK in a cold sweat until they do. And diplomacy would play a role here. Neat, yes?

[Edwin P.]

Yes, very neat.

[SeaMonkey]

Excellent Bill, thanks for your prompt answer as I have limited time before I lose my connection. My idea to create a pre Sept 39 condition seems to be well suited for SC2 since I will be able to add a military, diplomatic and geographical setting for Austria and Czechoslovakia. Hitler faced much dissension in the late 38 and early 39 time period and there was a real possibility of his disposal. Of course with Goering and later maybe Hess at the controls things may still have gone badly albiet differently. There is even a remote possibility of Pres. Benes/Poland joining with Germany for an "adventure" in Czechoslovakia which would be another variation of the European political climate. Now while I'm wondering, will the Editor allow for an extension of MPPs to another country while the giving country stays neutral on the Axis side? I'm aware this can be done for the Allies ala "lend lease", but what for the Axis?

[Edwin P.]

Can you with the Editor switch Italy and Turkey to recreate WWI with Turkey as an Active Major Nation?

Or any thoughts on having "option" for Turkey (and Spain!) as another major nation that is only activated if it is attacked to joins the Allies or Axis (a very rate event in most SC games). Would allow for WWI and Ancient Era Scenarios - Eastern Roman Empire, Persian Empire, Ottoman Empite. etc.

[ April 23, 2004, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

Can you with the Editor switch Italy and Turkey to recreate WWI with Turkey as an Active Major Nation?

Or any thoughts on having "option" for Turkey (and Spain!) as another major nation that is only activated if it is attacked to joins the Allies or Axis (a very rate event in most SC games). Would allow for WWI and Ancient Era Scenarios - Eastern Roman Empire, Persian Empire, Ottoman Empite. etc.

Si, si!

Definitly up for that and hope for it.

I'm very into making a WW1 mod and these features would help alot.

[Hubert Cater]

How it presently works is there are slots for 6 majors and 22 minors with the ability to set any country Allied or Axis, as well as active with a particular leaning, fully active, or neutral. Now couple this with the ability to name countries anything you like and I imagine there will be plenty of flexibility when it comes to campaign design

Hope this helps,

Hubert

[Blashy]

So you can put any country in those 6 slots?

[J P Wagner]

Originally posted by Blashy:

So you can put any country in those 6 slots?

From what he said, it looks that way...and since you can rename them, I presume that they do not even need to represent countries...for example, in the Russian Civil War scenario I guess I would have the six slots reserved for:

1. Reds

2. Whites

3. Blues - US, UK, & French Armies

4. Greens - Peasant Armies that fought on both sides

5. Poland

6. Ukrainian, Finnish, Armenian Independent Armies

The map would need to divide Russia into territories where Reds, Whites, Greens and Independent Armies would be initially positioned, with the Blues having the ability to invade during a specific turn....The Whites,Independent, and Blues would be allied (though historically they were not acting in unison) agianst the Reds...the Greens would be neutral and have valuable resources in their territories, which both armies would need to possess, so they could join either side, when their territory is invaded...Poland would also be neutral but like Russia in SC1, will have their war readinees increase by territorial incursions and build ups....

There you have a very bare bones idea of the scenario that I'm aching to try to make.... Bill?...Hubert?...anyone?....based on the editor, and what it can and cannot do, is such an idea plausible?

[Edwin P.]

Six majors seem good, I just have to figure out how to handle WWI.

1. Germany

2. AustoHungarian Empire

3. Ottoman Empire

4. UK (Allies)

5. France (Allies)

6. Russia (Allies)

7. US (Allies)

8. Italy (Allies)

Eight - two major nations too many.

[Bill101]

That's a very difficult problem, and the only answer I can see with a set up of 6 would be to make Italy and the USA minors as they came in later, and were to a certain degree equipped by the French anyway.

Or, as I cannot see our American friends liking that, make Turkey a minor as they relied on German support, though really 8 majors would be much better if not essential to make a decent WWI scenario.

Is there a WWI mod out for SC1? I'm getting the urge to play it...

[Desert Dave]

Eight - two major nations too many.

Just make two of the "lesser" and incidentally involved "major powers"... Minors.

You can still edit the Minors to have any sort of OOB, and a consequent "political relationship" to all the other participants.

They won't have the ability to "generate" industrial wealth, but simply provide them enough units and starting MPPs... so that they can have true historical impact, but, obviously, not a long-term effect in the same way that the Majors have.

In the same way, those who are intent on making a Global WW2 game could make France and China "minor powers" (... putting aside two others such as, say - Iran and Iceland) and substitute Japan as a Major.

(... though here I would tend to agree with Les the Sarge that it will be a true challenge to get a ~50 mile hex schematic to work for the Pacific theatre... however, why not just make those small islands like Tarawa TWO hexes... who is going to notice much or complain if the topography isn't strictly EXACT... the idea is to have FUN, not perfectly replicate every palm tree and sea shell)

I'm telling you, there is NO END to the possible scenarios with this incredible! Editor that Hubert has VERY, VERY generously offered. :cool:

Can anyone think of... ANY other game-maker who has done this?

I can't.

____________________

Bill... we had a similar notion almost simultaneously... well, I am Welsh on one family side, so could be... some ancient connection there? Or, is Wales distant from your home in England?

[ April 24, 2004, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[Bill101]

Dave

LOL. My home is about 100 miles away, though I've probably got some Welsh ancestry, we're all a mixture aren't we.

I just found the WWI scenario (see below). If you fancy a game of it just let me know.

http://www.peachmountain.com/5star/SC_DOWNLOADS.asp#Section5

[Night]

That WW1 Campaign should only be played with 2 people and not vs the A.I since there are restrictions.

A great WW1 game is Fields of Battle. The A.I. apparently has a matrix where it learns from your moves and mistakes etc. But the game is slightly to simple to really tell if it works. It can be found at the underdogs for download.

[Blashy]

Italy and USA as minors, is what I'll do.

in WW1, they were minors.

[J P Wagner]

Originally posted by Night:

[QB] That WW1 Campaign should only be played with 2 people and not vs the A.I since there are restrictions.

That is the aspect of the editor that has me the most confused..Sarge touched on it in some of his posts and it bears repeating...since we are using the SC2 AI, can single player campaigns run on the engine?...In other words can a solitaire game be made covering such topics as WWI, Korea, The Pacific, American or Russian Civil War, ect. using the SC2 AI?

[ April 25, 2004, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: J P Wagner ]

[pzgndr]

1. Reds

2. Whites

3. Blues - US, UK, & French Armies

4. Greens - Peasant Armies that fought on both sides

5. Poland

6. Ukrainian, Finnish, Armenian Independent Armies

There you have a very bare bones idea of the scenario that I'm aching to try to make.... Bill?...Hubert?...anyone?....based on the editor, and what it can and cannot do, is such an idea plausible?

Certainly. This falls well within Hubert's limits of 6 majors and 22 minors. Now all of these 6 that you mention don't need to be majors. Some could be minor allies aligned with either the Reds or Whites. And the peasant armies could be represented by partisans.

Some other scenarios like a global WWII game will be tougher to squeeze into the 6x22 box. But Grigsby's World at war is planning to combine UK/USA and Germany/Italy, so there's a precedent for 6 majors. 22 minors would require more abstraction for regions like Balkans, Iberia (Spain/Portugal), Scandinavia, etc. It would be a different game, for sure, but plausible. :cool:

[pzgndr]

A great WW1 game is Fields of Battle. The A.I. apparently has a matrix where it learns from your moves and mistakes etc.

Now that's something to think about. :cool:

[Edwin P.]

Any chance of convincing HC to increase the number of minor countries to 24 so I can sqeeze an independent Egypt and/or the Urkraine into SC2?

IE What if Germany had treated the Urkrainians better. So they start off as a Russian Ally. Germany Conquers them and then has a choice via a script - 1) Deal harshly with them and get plunder & partisans or 2) treat them with respect and get no plunder and no partisans.

Similarly with Egypt. Kick out the English and then face a choice 1) Retain control and deal with Partisans or 2) Withdraw and then Egypt becomes neutral - aka Vichy France.

or with England - 1)Conquer England and Grant them Vichy status so they can't be used as a base by the Americans or 2) Plunder the isles and deal with Partisans and an English countryside that must be occupied.

[ April 25, 2004, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[J P Wagner]

Originally posted by pzgndr:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> A great WW1 game is Fields of Battle. The A.I. apparently has a matrix where it learns from your moves and mistakes etc.

Now that's something to think about. :cool: </font>

[Blashy]

6 Majors for a full WW2 game is very easy IMHO

USA, UK, Germany, Italy, USSR, Japan.

The Minors would be a little harder, might have to group some countries together.

[Edwin P.]

You forget China. They tied down the Japanese Army.

Perhaps the best way to handle them with only six sides is to have China and France be the same country and have the capital move from Paris to China when France surrenders. Then china could continue to produce units. In addition for china, I would create a new corps unit that would cost half the price of a typical European corps unit. Due to their guerrilla network the Chinese corps I would also give these Chinese corps a spotting range of 3 instead of 2 hexes.

The only problem with this solution is how to handle Vichy France. Could a script be written to activate the Vichy option and disband French units in France if Paris was taken by the Axis?

[ April 26, 2004, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Blashy]

I would make China a minor.

It was not a major power, but the most significant minor.