Major Spinello Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 @Hyazinth: I fully agree that the idea was not sound in the first place. However, I just thought that AS THEY ALREADY WERE pressing towards Cairo, then this going to the Middle East would have been a logical further strategical step. I know that it was far away and a vast expanse of terrain to cover, but so it was for the UK! Also, the UK took and garrisoned everything from Syria to Persia with just a few divisions before. So once the DAK would have really gotten to Cairo, the Middle East could have been taken over with only a few additional troops coming from the Caucasus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted June 17, 2006 Author Share Posted June 17, 2006 Germans had no reason to be in N.Africa, risk & reward was not worth it. Instead, take those troops & shove them right under Stalin's left butt cheek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fartknock3r Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 You know what's funny? 36,000 British and Australian troops were able to push 250,000 Italian troops across Libya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Spinello Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 ... and it was about the same story in East Africa ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stanhope Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 Be glad it's a free world. Opinion's can't get you shot. Unless you live in North Korea or any other rat hole like it. Iran. Damn, Now I am bashing countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 My Grandfather was in North Africa with the British. He had some hilarious stories about the Italian troops. After his bomber got shot down he spent some time as a gaurd for an Italian POW camp. He described the prisoner/gaurd ratio as about 5000/1. The POWs would voluntarily polish his shoes, rifle, and BULLETS because they were so happy to be out of the war! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodstar Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 Keep in mind, none of the debate still changes the fac that Spain entering the war should have negative effects as well as positive. How about this, as an alternative reaction. Vichy France stays neutral, however the African colonies go allied with a corps in each port... as commonwealth troops. Experience is still borken. maybe reduce the effects of experience by 50%? Experience combined with tech is insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dispalor Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Sorry, for quoting a very old posting, but I'm new in the forum and reading with interest those threads. Over a week ago Blashy wrote: [...] or WW2 never could have occured because the Germans (again) could have won a peace in WW1, were it not for being betrayed by their political leaders. I have to comment this. You are referring to the "Dolchstoss-Legende". The situation in WW1 was a starving german people, its soldiers were unwilling to fight, communist ideas were growing, the people were more and more angry about their government. The situation in France was similar, but the Allies in the west had one advantage. The United States. In the WW2 the US played another role, but in WW1 they had almost NO military impact. They delivered material and brought fresh troops, won almost no battle (because battles in WW1 were almost everytime lost for both sides in the later years), but what they did was much. They replaced exhausted british and french troops and much more important: their Dow was a symbol. The exhausted Germans didnt want that war anymore, and at that point one of the largest countries in the world even BEGAN their war against them. Truth is: although of the big victory in the east, german military was at an end. There was no way forward, there was no way backward, there were just slaughter at the front. That is (military spoken) okay, if the the enemy has the same problem, but after the Americans enter, the game was finished. Please remember... Germany had 20! Tanks... okay, they were big. They were battlecruisers of the land, but look on the masses of tanks on the other side... Germany... had some problems with its leaders. The Emperor was a fool, who did not know what really happens on the front, the military leader wont give up. Everyone repeated to say "keep going, carry on, dont loose the war". A last attempt to win the war was made, the Frühjahroffensive of 1918, of course it was lost, the break down of the german military was a matter of months. At this time resistance grow in the Reich. Some politicans tried to convince the emperor to resign his throne to save germany, he did not. After a short while one of this politicians said to the people the Emperor would have resigned (he didnt)and Germany broke together. There was NO way to win that war! But the german military was very proud. They never confessed they had actually lost this war. And this idea grew fast. Of course the soldiers would have won this war. But this weak and fearful traior-politicians surrendered, may god build a special hell for them! Why the people believed that legend? The german propaganda was very good in ww1. Germany triumphed about Russia and from the western front you heard only from victories. The problems in Germany, and also the fact of an exhausted, hungry and suffering people, did not result for a big part of the people in a believe to loose that war. Of course the people suffered, but they suffered for *winning* that bloody war. And the government satisfied its people with wannabe-victories. In the pubs you saw german civilians plan strategies, it was kind of a hobby. Like today every one is a football trainer and knows exactly how to help his team to win a contest. The soldiers indeed told other stories, but whatever the reasons were, the conclusion that Germany may loose this war, grew only very, very, very slow. Why some parst knew the break down, why others not, why some people still loved the emperor and others hated him, this is a very complicated thing and my time and english is not enough to describe it now. After a time... you forget such things. YOu forget the long suffering, you remember, that your military is very cool. You see, that your country is crap, because the victors take so much money from you. And you definitly remember those damn politicans who are responsible for loosing the war. Surrendering with an intact army? What a joke! Armies rarly are defeated because they are weak, no one confesses that. The own military is strong and more important: the own military is correct, they are fair, they are nice and if you loose a war, you need the guilty ones. You see it in other legends, let's take WW2. Even today some in Germany and around the world (WHYEVER!) believe the Nazis are the bad guys, of course, but the Wehrmacht put a nice and fair fight. Listen to some Britains or Americans about the Wehrmacht. Nice Comments, though. Of course that are only a few voices, but many listen to them, Germans and others. Of course the Germans did many, many evil things. But not the Wehrmacht. That was Hitler, that was the SS, we were overrun by the nazis and after they formed the government, what should we have done? An order is an ordner and if you dont obey, you are shot. Those bloody Nazis are responsible for that whole crap, and no other Germans. Surly not! Do you want to say that MY gradfather, who served in the big war..... Of course, that is not true. No one was ever executed for don't obeying a killing order of civilians or even the russian kommissars. The Wehrmacht simply participated in that whole crap, freely! Not all... but many... I really don't know where all that crap is coming from... but nations tend to be proud on their military, whatever they do or have done. I find this very disturbing... and I'm glad to live in Germany, because most people have a very distorted feeling about military and if I see the opening of the "german white house" (bundeskanzleramt) and the militar plays old german songs but NOT the german hymne, I can't help myself but like it. But in the last years we go into the other direction and I fear for some things here... What? Thats not the topic? Yes, sorry.. The Dolchstoss-Legende was one of the major factors why parties like the Nazis grew in power. And it's a pity to read till today, that people think it's real, because it's as far from reality as anything can be. I recommend some other books, never trust a book that believes in the Dolchstoss-Legende. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blashy Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Of course Germany was bad and long term could not win, even after winning in Russia. BUT! The Allies did not know ALL that and the German troops were STILL in occupied land and reinforcements were coming, although not fresh and better supplied as the US was, it was still a force to be reckoned with. So they could have sued for peace or tell the allies millions more can die on both sides more on the German side but the gamble would have probably worked as both sides were exausted and more deaths or have a peace and Germany goes back home? This is where their political leaders failed them, they just wanted it to stop and accepted any cost for cease of hostilities. They never tried anything else and I think this where the legend grew to focus solely on the political leaders. You see video and pictures of German people in WW1 and the living conditions in cities is worse than WW2 after Germany started loosing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xwormwood Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 I highly recommend this book to anyone who can read german: "Die sieben Todsünden des deutschen Reiches im Ersten Weltkrieg" by Sebastian Haffner. It seems that this classic is not available in english, unfortunatly. Anyway: this is one of the best books about the seven most grave german mistakes ("deadly sins") in the WW1. -Abandoning Bismarcks policy -the Schliefenplan -Belgium & Poland -unrestricted U-Boat war -playing with fire: world revolution & russian bolsheviks -Brest-Litovsk or the missed last chance -the real dagger-stab (Dolchstoß) I remember one of the most stupid mistakes was leaving 50 divisions in russia even after the the harsh "peace" of Brest-Litovsk. Those men marched forward and forward towards the east even AFTER the peace treaty and even while germany lost the war in the west because they hadn't enough men to achieve a decisive victory in the spring offensive 1918 (Operation Michael). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dispalor Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Its simply not important what the ALlies thought. They knew they would win at the long haul, and that was enough. They had some goals for a piece and they fought as long as those conditions were met. Important is what the GERMANS thought, because you refer to a GERMAN, not to an Allied legend. And the OHL did know exactly, that the front was breaking down. Just before the end they admitted it, of course not to the people. It was an internal paper. Funny thing, this legend was highly supported by members of those group, that set up this paper. They knew exactly that it was a lie. The Allies never had a break through, but only because the Germans surrendered before. It was clear for the Allies and the Germans that this was a matter of a short time. The front was breaking, everyone knew it. More and more germans were becoming POWs. So they could have sued for peace or tell the allies millions more can die on both sides more on the German side but the gamble would have probably worked as both sides were exausted and more deaths or have a peace and Germany goes back home? You really believe we did not try to make piece? With EXACTLY THE SAME WORDS? Are we talking about the same war? We DID try. The Conditions were clear. The Emperor had to go and Germany have to surrender completely. That was the problem. With an emperor like Willy you cant make such a piece, he would never have agreed to it, and a complete surrender is nothing you really like, if you are the looser. And Willy even thought about taking some military and shoot down people on the streets. He did not... When he was finally resigned by some politicans, the way for peace was made. This is where their political leaders failed them, they just wanted it to stop and accepted any cost for cease of hostilities. They really did? After the war there was the Peace of Versaille, that is the pinacle of that Legend and I believe it's that what you mean by "at any cost". But how to prevent it? The conditions of that piece contract were so hard, that the Germans thought about taking the weapons again. But whatfor? To pay even more money after a senseless attempt? The Reich *broke together*. Two german states were proclamated, people rise on the streets, german soldiers took the right in their hands. There were rises everywhere, communists, nationalist, socialists... This was the situation in that german politicians had to decide if to sign that piece of Versaille or to keep fighting, after parts of your army began to rebel and other parts of the people would have lynched you on sight. There simply was no way out. Some politicians resigned, because they did not want to sign that contract. But even they did know, that there was no other way. You simplify a complicated matter. And far worse, you repeat a long time disproved legend, brought up by some of the most evil germans of this time. People, who brought Germans into the most devastating war the world had ever seen, who disliked democracy and tried to destroy it, who helped the Nazis in the end to get their power. ...and to make myself absolutely clear: This is Nazi Crap. You are walking on dangerous grounds..., friend. But it's your decision. After reading your answer I would not recommend you to read OTHER books about, but to read books about. Or perhaps wikipedia in your own language? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rclawson007 Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Spain entering does have a negative impact. US activation increases and they transfer Naval Assets from the Pacific including an AC Carrier. I seriously question the significance of this issue many seem to have. It can be easily countered...and will be included in a future AI patch. I've already modded my AI to couter Spain for both sides so I am sure the official mod crew will get into the next patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted June 18, 2006 Author Share Posted June 18, 2006 Has another German Worshipper been revealed? Nazi radar is upon another one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blashy Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Originally posted by xwormwood: Anyway: this is one of the best books about the seven most grave german mistakes ("deadly sins") in the WW1. -Abandoning Bismarcks policy I remember one of the most stupid mistakes was leaving 50 divisions in russia even after the the harsh "peace" of Brest-Litovsk. Those men marched forward and forward towards the east even AFTER the peace treaty and even while germany lost the war in the west because they hadn't enough men to achieve a decisive victory in the spring offensive 1918 (Operation Michael). Well for the 50 Divisions, maybe they were afraid Russia might attack if they left themselves weak? Then again, maybe they coulid have moved half of those divisions and still repel a Russian attack, who knows. As for Bismark, his main policy you are most likely referring to is always having TWO of the major powers (France, UK and Russia) on your side. Or I think it was one of the majors with some minors (Austro-Hungari and Turkey). What did Germany do after they practically threw him asside, they make enemies of all THREE. With that alone Germany could never have WON outright. Delusions of Grandeur from idiotic leaders and not pragmatic leaders like Otto. [ June 18, 2006, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Blashy ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted June 18, 2006 Author Share Posted June 18, 2006 @xwormwood --- Do you have anymore Bunta books you'd like to suggest to take as Gospel? Is it true you might be a German Worshipper as one has suggested? You coming out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dispalor Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 That book is a good one. I never read it, but I often heard referring about it. I speak about university circles. I don't know for sure what you mean with the part of the german worshipper, but just in case you meant my own comment, I want to assure you, that I did not write about xwormwood, but Blashy and even Blashy I did not want to take for a german worshipper, even if I believe that this legend-bullship is nazi-Crap. I don't even know how other nations think about that dagger-thrust-legend, but germans have their own opinion about it and we are naturally good informed about that aspect of history. He said the germans could have won the war if not betrayed by their leaders, what is simply wrong. But okay. The problem is, this was one of the big slogans the Nazi Party used to gain power, and it was important for me to correct this. But even if it's dangerous ground he is walking on, I don't think he did know that and even more, I don't think, only because of that, he is a German Worshipper. I want to make this absolutly clear, rambo. So if its possible to understand my posting in this sense, I want to say sorry to Blashy. My english is'nt that good, that I have control about every feeling my texts may wake and perhaps I was a little harsh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted June 18, 2006 Author Share Posted June 18, 2006 Okay, message received, Worship Radar has reported a false positive, well, at least at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dispalor Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 I'm glad to hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted June 18, 2006 Author Share Posted June 18, 2006 New question. "Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?" --- Senator J. McCarthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xwormwood Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Originally posted by jon_j_rambo: @xwormwood --- Do you have anymore Bunta books you'd like to suggest to take as Gospel? Is it true you might be a German Worshipper as one has suggested? You coming out? Would you please stop pouring this bull**** all over me? i am really fed up with you and your behaviour, honestly. i believe in jesus christ, i am a reborn christian and a member of a baptist church. If it makes you happy: i am a german. if this alone is enough to enrage your hatred or your "don't you ever dare to post here anymore-attitude", than fine, make my day. Writing and confessing this, all i can say towards you (knowing that i am far away from perfection as well), is that you, dear brother in christ, should really spare some time looking into your own dark heart, and start listing to what our lord has said. you are aggressive, insulting towards nearly everyone and self-loving to the upmost. before spreading rumors try at least to take a closer look onto what was written before starting to agitate. You never heard of Sebastian Haffner? Well, this is obvious, and your loss. But please believe me: if there is something on this planet what you have never heard of / from, than it doesn't have to be nescessarily another gospel or the pure evil at all. I suggest that you should try to read once in a time instead of playing computer games. Go on with your witch hunt, and my next whining, complaining and action demanding mail goes towards a moderator here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dispalor Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 It would be funny to say yes, but actually no. I admire the communist idea, everyone is happy and so on, the problem is... I just don't believe it's working. Democray is not working, too. But at least it's the best idea till now. Churchill expressed my own feelings about democracy in a perfect way. So, after your nazi radar, the communist radar is activated? Lets give the others a chance to get back to topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blashy Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I always refer to Hitler as "señor dumbass" in many of my posts, how is that interpreted as being a nazy supporter by a redneck :confused: My only explanation is his poor understanding of spanish. FYI JJvR, Spanish is the language Mexicans speak, no they don't speak "mexican" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I recommend this page as a good read on German pilitical events around the end of the war - it's a bit long and involved, but it gives a great feeling as to the chaos. As for the garrisoning of Russia - Germany expected to get a great deal from it's victory - it occupied almost teh whole of the Ukraine, and given another summer would probably have solved its most pressing crisis - food! Brest-Litovsk took 1/3rd of Russia's population, half her industry and 90% of her coal mines......butthey would have had nothing if they didnt' garrison it - the Soviets and various nationalities were vying for power, and German presence was often the major stabilising force! the area shaded in red shows how much of Russia was annexed - map (I tried to link an image of a smaller version of this map but the board doesnt' allow brackets in HTML) Any number of divisions would not have helped in St Michael and St George - manpower was not teh problem - supply and morale were. the Germans had been told that the allies were suffering jus as heavily from hte U-boat blockades as Germany was from the Alied blockade - but htey discovered that was a lie when they advanced across France. In some cases whole units got drunk for days on captured wine, and the mere presence of white bread caused disturbances - Germans hadn't seen white bread for 2-3 years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Originally posted by jon_j_rambo: Well, we had another little fight of our own, called the Japs. Bottom Line, we won. We rebuilt the world, changed the world, everybody is getting onboard the USA way of life. Democracy, Capitalism, etc...well, save parts of the Middle East. If you're reading this, thank a teacher. If you're reading this in English, thank the US Military. -Legend It's nice to see that some things never change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blashy Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 firstworldwar.com has to be the best site on the net regarding WW1. It has been my favorite for a long time. JJ, democracy and capitalism existed when Rome was not even born. They keep failing because both of them are never applied properly. Greed always takes over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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