Amphibious assault – MAJOR ISSUE

[jon_j_rambo]

Son, 15 minutes of warning is all that it takes to get the necessary margin of victory over the enemy!!!

Remember that little engagement near Midway?

Better yet, lets go back to the early years. One if by Land, Two by Sea, at the old North Church. Yes, I know it was more than just Paul who rode.

and the whole congregation sang,"I hear that trumpet I'm gone."....that's all the notice we need.

[Lars]

But it doesn't do you much good if all your Battleships are 12 hours away in Scapa Flow, which is the point.

No need to build an expensive radar warning system when a guy with a telephone will work just as well.

[Guest Mike]

Actualy you might get no warning at all in 1940 - the Chain Home Low radar only detected a/c above 500 feet IIRC. Chain home Extra Low came into operation in 1943 and could detect a/c down to 50 feet.

And of cours if radar can detect ships on the horizon so can the Mk 1 eyeball!!

Just a point - did you guys note my previous post that the German plan called for the large ships to stand off the English coast unleading for 3 days unloading the bulk of the 1st wave??

And THEN those same ships weer to sail back to the continent to load up the 2nd wave!! Assuming that the ships had survived of course!!

Sealion would ahve been a decisive battle all right - the loss of 3-500,000 German soldiers would have destroyed German hegemony in Europe and probably kept the Axis minors out of the war for a year or more. There would probably have been an earlier pro-allied coup in Yugoslavia, Mussolini would lose face, the Soviets ecstatic, and resistance movments in occupied countries encouraged.

[jon_j_rambo]

Yeah, but the ships will cutoff supply in reality. Real life, you don't get "Supply 5" from an enemy's city.

[Lars]

Well, remember those 1,000 LST's that I pointed out? The US considered them a one-way ship as they thought loses were going to be staggering.

There is no doubt Germany could have done Sealion, if they had prepared properly for it beforehand (which they didn't), or built the shipping to do so and held off on Russia till later.

[Guest Mike]

Quite right Jon!

It wasn't the BB's that would do the damage - it was the 20-30 cruisers and 80-odd destroyers based at Hull and Bristol - just a few hours sailing time from the beaches.

they could get to the roadsteads, spend a couple of hours destroying transports and get back to base all in one night. And their bases were outside Me-109 range from the Continent so trying to bomb them would have been very expensive at just the time teh Heer would ned maximum air support at the front line.

Plus of course the RAF & FAA DID have good torpedo bombers available to attack the transports too - Beauforts and Swordfish respectively.

[jon_j_rambo]

Wolfgang was rather tricky in the movie, The Eagle Has Landed.

[Lars]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organist:

Quite right Jon!

It wasn't the BB's that would do the damage - it was the 20-30 cruisers and 80-odd destroyers based at Hull and Bristol - just a few hours sailing time from the beaches.

they could get to the roadsteads, spend a couple of hours destroying transports and get back to base all in one night. And their bases were outside Me-109 range from the Continent so trying to bomb them would have been very expensive at just the time teh Heer would ned maximum air support at the front line.

Plus of course the RAF & FAA DID have good torpedo bombers available to attack the transports too - Beauforts and Swordfish respectively.

Well, there was always the option of doing a feint.

RN sails down to save the day, Luftwaffe & U-boats have a field day, then the real invasion shows up.

[Guest Mike]

There isn't enough shipping to do a feint PLUS an invasion - that's why the plan required the ships from the first wave to go back to pick up the 2nd wave - they didn't have any ships to carry a 2nd wave at the same time.

In addition:

1/ There weren't that many U-boats - only 20 were available IIRC, including taking all the training boats!

2/ The luftwaffe can't operate at night

3/ The luftwaffe doesn't actually have much anti-shipping experience

4/ Even without troops on board the loss of all that shipping would be a disaster for the continental economies - IIRC it included pretty much every decent sized coastal vessel, and some massive proportion of the Rhine barge fleet - 25%?

5/ the Kriegsmarine is pathetically weak at this stage and doesn't really have enough to protect even 1 convoy let alone 2 - it is grossly outnumbered in ships of all classes (3:1 or more), and was even planning on resurrecting a pre-dreadnought training ship and beaching it as a shore battery.

Basically Sealion could not possibly have worked in 1940 - for it to work at all they required a year or 2 simply building ships to carry the troops!

[Lars]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organist:

There isn't enough shipping to do a feint PLUS an invasion - that's why the plan required the ships from the first wave to go back to pick up the 2nd wave - they didn't have any ships to carry a 2nd wave at the same time.

A feint doesn't require much shipping. Besides, would you trade a German Kampfgruppe for a major portion of the RN? Of course you would.

In addition:

1/ There weren't that many U-boats - only 20 were available IIRC, including taking all the training boats!

20 U-boats, twenty lost CA. At least. Plus you get another shot when they're scurrying back to port. So call it 40. Rinse and repeat the next day.

2/ The luftwaffe can't operate at night

Time it so they have to show up around dawn. Not a major problem.

3/ The luftwaffe doesn't actually have much anti-shipping experience

This one is true. I still haven't figured out how those Stukas could hit a tank, yet miss a ship. However, there's a fix for that too. Mainly, more Stukas.

4/ Even without troops on board the loss of all that shipping would be a disaster for the continental economies - IIRC it included pretty much every decent sized coastal vessel, and some massive proportion of the Rhine barge fleet - 25%?

Bah, don't be a bean counter. We're out to rule the world here!

5/ the Kriegsmarine is pathetically weak at this stage and doesn't really have enough to protect even 1 convoy let alone 2 - it is grossly outnumbered in ships of all classes (3:1 or more), and was even planning on resurrecting a pre-dreadnought training ship and beaching it as a shore battery.

Not as weak as you think, plus they'd have the advantage of surprise.

Basically Sealion could not possibly have worked in 1940 - for it to work at all they required a year or 2 simply building ships to carry the troops!

Could have, but would have been a hell of a risk. Agree though it would have been better to wait a year, build better landing craft, and mount a 88 on the back of every single dang one of them.

[Guest Mike]

No, it couldn't have.

20 U-boats = 20 CA?? What are you sniffing??!!

Top-of-the-line U-boats with experienced crews couldn't even manage that agaisnt convoys let alone mostly 2nd class boats with raw crews at night against warships at speed and expecting attack!

You can plan your initial landings at dawn, but then you have 3 nights of sitting around off-loading more troops and supplies because you don't have any real amphibious transport capacity. So your fleet gets slaughtered at night.

Stukas of course never hit tanks much - unless the tanks were stationary. They didn't even hit slow moving cargo ships in channel convoys all that much, let alone fast moving destroyers.

And of course more Stukas means more work for the 109's to escort them, which means fewer 109's elsewhere, which makes the RAF happy!

Plus Stuka's don't operate at night either, and the RN's bases aer outside 109 range for daylight attacks - which makes the RAF even happier!!

A feint has to be credible - the British were getting reports from spies on hte Continent so despatching any ships without troops would be recognised as such. Open barges and the like can't be disguised as full if they're empty.

And even if the large ships are only "lightly loaded" you still have to have enough ships to suggest that they might be carrying enough troops, and they didn't have enough for a feint AND an invasion.

The Kriegsmarine was exactly as weak as I think - I did a year 3 paper on Sealion at Uni and I think I stil have it so I can get the exact numbers if you like

Yes building more landing craft (or even ANY landing craft!!) would have made the invasion possible - but that wasn't going to happen in 1940 unless the planning had started in 1938.

sorry to rain on your parade, but conquering the world wasn't really on the agenda in 1940 - it is only ever a fantasy in some wargamers mind!

:cool:

[Lars]

I think a U-boat firing a spread of eight at a CA and you could pretty much kiss the CA goodbye.

As for the range of the planes to RN bases, irrelevant. The RN has to come to you. And if they don't, you're still driving tanks off of barges. And it doesn't take three days to unload. Pretty much roll-on, roll off. Besides, you want to shoot up beached barges, be my guest. See above.

Now send a setup, swine. rleete apparantly is caught up in the drive chain of a kiddie car and my file isn't here yet. You Axis, soft builds, and we'll agree to skip most of the gamey stuff.

[Cheese Panzer]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

You can't defeat hearts with the sword.

Try telling that to a Cartheginian. Oh, wait, you can't. They were all killed with swords.

Geez, Rambo, get your head out of the Tom Clancey movies and try reading a history book.

[Cheese Panzer]

Originally posted by Lars:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Exel:

You know, there was a reason why the U.S. mounted the invasion from Britain, not from New York. There's also a reason why they crossed the English canal instead of going directly to Germany. Or why they needed Tunisia for Sicily.

Amphibious transports do NOT have the ability to sail the seven seas before hitting the beach and landing the troops in peak condition.

Reducing the action points by half or more and thus penalizing long crossings is only realistic. If you want to transport troops long distances, you use Transports. If you want to invade, you use Amphibious Transports, but you better do that from a nearby port.

Er, actually, they can do it very easily.

LST - Range about 10,000 miles on 50,000 gallons of diesel fuel.

And could carry six LCVP on board to boot. We only built over a 1,000 of them. You should really do a little research before making such wild claims.

And at 10 knots, New York-London or New York-Casablanca is only 14 days. </font>

[Cheese Panzer]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organist:

Quite right Jon!

It wasn't the BB's that would do the damage - it was the 20-30 cruisers and 80-odd destroyers based at Hull and Bristol - just a few hours sailing time from the beaches.

they could get to the roadsteads, spend a couple of hours destroying transports and get back to base all in one night. And their bases were outside Me-109 range from the Continent so trying to bomb them would have been very expensive at just the time teh Heer would ned maximum air support at the front line.

Plus of course the RAF & FAA DID have good torpedo bombers available to attack the transports too - Beauforts and Swordfish respectively.

... and 30-40 submarines, and 50+ torpedo boats, ...

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Lars:

I think a U-boat firing a spread of eight at a CA and you could pretty much kiss the CA goodbye.

What U-boats had 8 tubes? Even the Type VIII's had only 6 IIRC, and the training boats were older ones with mostly only 2.

As for the range of the planes to RN bases, irrelevant. The RN has to come to you. And if they don't, you're still driving tanks off of barges. .

.

Sure - but see below - you can't offload troops from sunken transports, and the RN is always planning to attack mostly at night.

But if they did attack during teh day it would be an even quicker massacre - but with jsut a few more RN losses - probably still nothing major compared to destroying the entire Kriegsmarine!

And it doesn't take three days to unload. Pretty much roll-on, roll off. Besides, you want to shoot up beached barges, be my guest. See above.

did you not read? It WAS going to take 3 days to offload - that was the plan!!

The barges couldn't be beached - they had to go back to the ships standing off the beaches, load up and deliver more troops and supplies to the beach.

there's no need to attack the barges at all - teh nice big cargo and passenger ships off eth beaches are sitting ducks, also the ONLY source of resupply. Sink them and every single troop on land is lost.

Even if the Germans capture a port it's those same ships that would bring in the supplies to it. Which they can't do if you've sunk them!

Now send a setup, swine. rleete apparantly is caught up in the drive chain of a kiddie car and my file isn't here yet. You Axis, soft builds, and we'll agree to skip most of the gamey stuff.

What's "soft builds"? Isn't that whwere there's no limits, and isn't that the biggest gamey thing in the first place?

I don't get home for another 10 hours, but when I do I'm gonna start the hiding you so richly deserve :cool:

[Cheese Panzer]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Wolfgang was rather tricky in the movie, The Eagle Has Landed.

You really do get all your information from movies, don't you?

Incredible.

Here's a flash for you, JJR - movies are FAKE. Rambo is a FICTION. The USA LOST Vietnam.

[Retributar]

My understanding for 'Soft Builds',...is that if this option is enabled, then you can select which types of unit's you desire to be able to 'overbuild' past the pre-set limit's already set for your particular game.

However, when 'SoftBuild' is Enabled, you will pay a higher-premium to purchase units past the preset unit limit's in the game!.

[LampCord]

Originally posted by Cheese Panzer:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

Wolfgang was rather tricky in the movie, The Eagle Has Landed.

You really do get all your information from movies, don't you?

Incredible.

Here's a flash for you, JJR - movies are FAKE. Rambo is a FICTION. The USA LOST Vietnam. </font>

[Lars]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organist:

What's "soft builds"? Isn't that whwere there's no limits, and isn't that the biggest gamey thing in the first place?

I don't get home for another 10 hours, but when I do I'm gonna start the hiding you so richly deserve :cool:

Looking forward to it.

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by LampCord:

We had their asses whipped after Tet and everyone who's studdied the war knows that.

Yep - just like the Carthaginians had teh Romans arses whipped after Trebia, Trasimenne and Cannae...... :eek: :eek:

We just got tired ....

No stamina - can't stand the long haul!

It's kinda axiomatic that you can win a war if you just don't give in for long enough - the Romans weer really good at it - they'd suffer defeat after defeat after defeat against some enemies such as Gauls, Germans and Carthaginians - they just didn't know when to give up, and they eventually won......for a thousand years or so at least!

[jon_j_rambo]

@Cheesepanties --- First you try to molest Fartknocker, then you come in here, go off topic by insulting the US in 'Nam?

Son, we stood up to Communism all over the planet while the rest of the world stood still. When you go across the planet to fight for freedom, its a statement to the enemy (Commies), that we will fight. South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Phillipines, Guam, all those little islands, etc. Cuba, Nicaragu, Panama, El Salvador, Africa, Germany, etc....

Dude, we freed the whole world from the tyranny the best we can. We can only do so much. At least we try.

That wall in Berlin fell, as a result of those stands!

Iraq might succeed, it might fail...either way, it's worth a try to bring freedom to all. We get more missionaries out!

The US won, look at our country, now 'Nam is following our lead with demorcracy & individual rights...the whole planet is now, India, China, Germany, etc.

There are all kinds of great Rambos in this nation, who served, proudly. It wasn't their war, Uncle Sam asked them, and they went. Come back thru the airport, bunch of maggots calling them baby killers & all kinds of vile crap.

"You have no idea how to defend a nation" --- Col. Jessup

[Fartknock3r]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

@Cheesepanties --- First you try to molest Fartknocker, then you come in here, go off topic by insulting the US in 'Nam?

Son, we stood up to Communism all over the planet while the rest of the world stood still. When you go across the planet to fight for freedom, its a statement to the enemy (Commies), that we will fight. South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Phillipines, Guam, all those little islands, etc. Cuba, Nicaragu, Panama, El Salvador, Africa, Germany, etc....

Dude, we freed the whole world from the tyranny the best we can. We can only do so much. At least we try.

That wall in Berlin fell, as a result of those stands!

Iraq might succeed, it might fail...either way, it's worth a try to bring freedom to all. We get more missionaries out!

The US won, look at our country, now 'Nam is following our lead with demorcracy & individual rights...the whole planet is now, India, China, Germany, etc.

There are all kinds of great Rambos in this nation, who served, proudly. It wasn't their war, Uncle Sam asked them, and they went. Come back thru the airport, bunch of maggots calling them baby killers & all kinds of vile crap.

"You have no idea how to defend a nation" --- Col. Jessup

Preach on

[Desert Dave]

Come back thru the airport, bunch of maggots calling them baby killers & all kinds of vile crap.

Never heard tell of it,

Don't know of anybody who did.

Spitting on soldiers neither, LOL!

What a spurious crock of sh*t.

Do believe this falls under category of:

Urban Myth.

Either that, or,

IF something had happened

Such as this... to ONE or even several

Returning vets,

Most likely done by one of the MANY

Agent Provocateurs

Who had infiltrated "the Movement,"

As in... anti-war movement,

You can dig it?

My understanding was that the various

LEGITIMATE anti-war groups

(... just as those groups are necessary

and, protected by First Amendment - NOW)

Had, oh, on the order of 40-50%

Government agents in the midst

Of each group.

Get it now? Celluloid Hero?

Quit perpetuating LIES,

Quit talking about things

You know LESS THAN NOTHING about;

That would be a beginning

Toward understanding HOW we got into that mess

To start with.

How we seem to get into continual messes

Of late, say, like manipulative Cold War bullsh*t.

How the Government LIES to us.

One thing you could do, for instance,

Read General Dwigt D Eisenhower's

Final Address to the Nation

Before he handed power to JFK,

RE: Dangers of the Military Industrial Complex.

[jon_j_rambo]

Life's rather good in the USA, no complaints here.