Waterloo 1815 - soon ready

[Kuniworth]

Soon this one will be ready, it's a game of manouveur, with brigade and some battalion sized units. It aims to be historical with correct OOB and command ratings.

It's intended for fast play, Napoleon must simply break Wellington's entrenched line before the prussians come into play and slowly turn the tide.

In this picture we can see the french advance on Le Haye Saint and Hougoumont farms with the english line entrenched on the ridge further north. Note the historical sandpit just right of Le Haye Saint which have the same defence-bonus as the crest of the ridge.

[ November 26, 2006, 07:49 AM: Message edited by: Kuniworth ]

[AZGungHo]

Kuni,

WOW - it looks great - I'll play this one for sure! Hurry dude - can't wait!!

[Blashy]

HOLY ! Those are AMAZING bitmaps.

What I like about WATERLOO... it was slightly in Napoleon's favor but his overconfidence in his troops pretty much cost him (making them advance without proper artillery fire beforehand... due to extensive mud).

BTW, don't forget the MUD .

I can't wait to give this a spin!

[TaoJah]

Sure, the mud made that Napoleon's cavalry couldn't manouver well enough.

But IMHO he lost because he didn't call off one of the earlier attacks when it went wrong : instead of taking his loses, he just kept on throwing more and more troops at the center, who were butchered from all sides.

One of the few military mistakes he ever made.

[Retributar]

Blashy!,... if 'Napoleone' was truly in charge of his troop's movement's or action's,... i can guarantee you that the 'Battle of Waterloo' would have been won by him!.

Please do some research on this subject, as im very sure that at the time that all of these mistakes were being made, Napoleone was out of commission, as im quite sure that he had a very bad case of Hemhorroid's, so then Marshall Ney and his other General's took over the command of the field.

When Napoleone was able to finally make it back to the scene of the action, he was in great-disgust at what he had saw happening, and was dismayed at Ney for ordering the Cavalry to attack without Artillery and Infantry support!.

[Blashy]

Not his cavalry, his artillery.

The initial artillery assaults he was famous for (with his better cannons), he could not do it because of the mud. He still sent his ground troops UPHILL after the enemy... waiting with their guns. A massacre.

Of course he felt press for time because he was going to be outnumbered, but not by much and he was the better field commander, had he been patient he would have won, I've always been of that opinion.

I agree with the cavalry comment as well.

Basically on that day he was impatient and that was the military mistake he made.

I agree he did make VERY few mistakes, just that those few cost him ALOT.

Just like Hannibal (probably the best military commander of all time), he made one blunder but it cost him the whole war YIKES!

Of course hindsight makes us all think we know better but give me 100 000 men and the best I'll probably do is have them dig a ditch!

[ November 03, 2006, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: Blashy ]

[Retributar]

Your are right Blashy , but your out of sequence, the Cavalry attack took place much earlier than the final assualt that you are reffering to!.

[Blashy]

He always assaults with Artillery first, that is what I meant.

Yes he did send the Cavalry BEFORE the big assault. I did not mean to say you were wrong about that or anything for that matter.

Just that if he could have pummeled with artillera, even without a cavalry, it might have turned out different.

With clear weather, he would have been the clear winner IMHO>

[ November 03, 2006, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: Blashy ]

[JerseyJohn]

Went to the other forum first and posted on the comments there, which I guess was earlier. I see a lot of the same points were brought up in this one, so may as well just copy my original post.

Originally posted by JerseyJohn:

Kuni,

Great job on the battle. Looking forward to playing it.

Retributar,

Excellent point.

Also,

If it hadn't rained the night before, making the ground soft and muddy the following day, the French artillery would have been much more effective. As it was the volleys did a lot of damage, except to the units Wellingon placed on the rear side of ridges. But with the ground hard it would have been devastating.

-- Then there was Napoleon having a bad health day and Ney conducting most of the attacks. I think Ney was clearly irrational, probably gone mad after Russia. He demonstrated that both on the field here and also after Quatra Bras when, instead of following up his tactical victory and keeping Welington off balance he personally carried a captured flag back to Napoleon's HQ, allowing the Anglo/Allies to organize, unhindered, south of Brussels.

I'd love to see a full campaign game of Napoleon moving north out of France. One with an option of the French having that missing corps (4th?) that ignored it's march orders because it was commanded by royalists. If he'd have been on top of things, that would have been the place where Ney would have done some good, he could have been sent to that corps, the army's greatest hero, and they'd have rallied to him.

[Blashy]

JJ, you have great incite and I find an objective view of many battles/wars.

Why not make a mod? WW1 for example.

Have you ever seen a show on History channel explaining why Napoleon's famous artillery proved to be quite useless?

They used the same cannons and the shells fell in the mud and did virtually no damage to a white canvass about 10 feet away, while on hard soil it ripped it apart.

They also showed how difficult it was to move, near impossible. They used a bunch (6-8) of top shape military guys and they could not get it anywhere.

[Xanos]

I have to agree with JerseyJohn,

The rain storm the day before slowed down the Little N one day, which if we would have attacked on that day instead of having to wait due to the weather. Then it is generally accepted that Napoleon would have ripped apart the forces against him and then crushed (again) the pursian army, and the world would be a different place...

[Blashy]

Yep, the world would be different...

Canad would have a fleur de lys instead of a maple leaf and the colors would be blue instead of red.

Vive le Canada... Vive le Canada LIBRE!

LOL!

[JerseyJohn]

Xanos,

One of history's great What-Ifs?

-- Complicating things was a pair of Russian and Austrian armies that hadn't arrived yet, the Russians were moving through Holland and the Austrians through Northern Italy. Napoleon had very little in reserve to counter them with.

Truth is he came back too soon. If he'd stayed on Elba till 1816 the Bourbons would have been even more hated and the continental armies would have been demobilized.

All speculation, of course, but a Napoleon retaking the thrown in 1816 might well have been able to remain on it.

Blashy,

Appreciated, and likewise. I've noticed that often we see different aspects of the same issue and, between the two of us, cover a lot of ground.

I'm not very familiar with the scenario editor yet, but am starting to work on a few ideas, mainly built around Hubert's basic 1939 scenario.

As more mods come out by the community I'll hopefully be able to adapt some ideas, such as a map or two, and use them for an odd scenario that might have been overlooked.

Thanks for the idea; WWI would certainly be interesting. I was thinking about a Delayed Great War scenario, where it opens a decade later, air power a little past it's infancy, same with tanks, etc.

[ChrisND]

Hehe. I've been dyin' to do some Sopwith Camel sprites.

[Kuniworth]

Guys I have some questions I would hope you could share your view upon;

1. I feel that there is a risk that both player will mass there forces into one big pile to get an advantage over the opponent. Maybe victory objectives should be spread out more for the british(right now it's mont st.jean and ferme mont.st jean in the rear british center) and also include the flanks? Hougoumont, La Haye Sainte and Papelotte farms are at the moment included as fortresses(strongpoints) instead of victory objectives. Any thoughts on this and how to make the battle more similar to napoleonic wars?

2. How to treat cavalry? They should be bad in terrain like forests and swaps but otherwise? Unfortunately there is no way in SC2 to simulate infantry forming squares so either cavalry is good against infantry or they are not. What do you think I should go for?

3. Fields are included and slows movement(due to the mud) plus it makes the unit more vunerable to cavalry and infantry attacks. You think this is ok?

4. Spotting, how far should units be able to spot the enemy? Problem with sc2 is that units "see through" woods, over ridges etc, so if they can see to far there will be no surprises. On the other hand if you make it 1-2 tiles they can spot than there is no chance artillery can attack targets at historical range.

5. Range of attacks; As I see it Cavalry should be a close combat unit with range 1(although some carried guns) and artillery s of cours long range. But how about infantry, I think 2 tiles might work but that pretty much makes the strong-points useless as players can attack them and destroy the defender at range without ever losing something in the process. I think infantry should have an attack-range of 1 because of this, what do you think?

6. At Waterloo, canister fire was a killer while the heavy long range french guns were ineffective due to mud. What is the best way to simulate this - should artillery be effective or not? I'm leaning on artillery beeing a good weapon after all since it more or less crushed the Bijlandt brigade and destroyed a lot of french infantry at Hougoumont(Bull's howitzers) and helped stop the assault by garde imperiale 7.30 pm.

7. Forest should hinder movement. But how large should the penalty be? Eg Should artillery be able to move through woods?

8. Movement; If infantry has a movement of 2, Cavalry 3 and artillery 2 would that be ok? Maybe the movement points should be more but I'm afraid that it would be too easy for a player to shift his whole force from one crtical spot to another in one move,from one flank of the battlefield to the other too quickly = players will just put all his units in a "big pile". What do you think?

Any other comments?

[JerseyJohn]

I've been waiting to see if anyone has any useful suggestions for Kuni on this. Didn't offer any myself because I don't see any way around the problems he's listed. Hoping somebody else, more familiar with the game mechanics does, because it looks like a great scenario.

-- My only thought is the SC2 system might work better for the whole campaign, on a map of NE France/Low Countries, than it does with the actual brigade/battalion battle tactics.

Mud seems hopeless to me unless there's no chance of it drying again.

[Retributar]

Agreed!,... 'JerseyJohn' .

My only thought is the SC2 system might work better for the whole campaign, on a map of NE France/Low Countries, than it does with the actual brigade/battalion battle tactics .

I think that,...that is exactly how it should be done...for the best effect and flavour of the Campaign!. Meaning to use NE France, and division's instead of Brigade/Battalion sized unit's.

By the same token, whynot have both?. I would personally like the entire campaign which led up to the 'Battle of Waterloo', as well as 'The Battle of Waterloo' itself!.

As far as 'Mud', well even during the 'Battle of Waterloo', after the previous night's downpour, the ground was drying all morning until around 'Noon', the ground was finally dry-enough to manuever the Napoleonic Cannon's, so that the barrage could begin.

[ November 14, 2006, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Retributar:

Agreed!,... 'JerseyJohn' .

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> My only thought is the SC2 system might work better for the whole campaign, on a map of NE France/Low Countries, than it does with the actual brigade/battalion battle tactics .

I think that,...that is exactly how it should be done...for the best effect and flavour of the Campaign!. Meaning to use NE France, and division's instead of Brigade/Battalion sized unit's.

By the same token, whynot have both?. I would personally like the entire campaign which led up to the 'Battle of Waterloo', as well as 'The Battle of Waterloo' itself!.

As far as 'Mud', well even during the 'Battle of Waterloo', after the previous night's downpour, the ground was drying all morning until around 'Noon', the ground was finally dry-enough to manuever the Napoleonic Cannon's, so that the barrage could begin. </font>

[Retributar]

Kuniworth...what you are stating makes sense to me at this point!. Off-hand i have no critique!.

One feature that i would like to see in SC2 is to be able to include both the 'Main Campaign' as well as to be able to switch-over to do 'local Specific Contests'.

In this case,for example, one could '1st' prosecute the campaign on a larger main map of NE France and Belgium. Then,...if one wanted, to do a full-scale zoomed-in enactment such as the 'Battle of Ligny'.

An option button would be available to then access that specific town and the unit's in it.

So now instead of doing the contest on the main map, all the forces presently in Ligny or converging into it would now be represented in a blown up map of the local area!.

Unit's not yet currently at 'Ligny' would not at first be represented in that particular confrontation, but as the hour's tick by, and as they move into 'Ligny', they would now be available for the player's use!.

As historically happened, there were battle's along the way to Waterloo, such as Ligny and i can't remember the rest, before the forces converged in Belgium for the final contest.

Of course this feature is not available for SC2, but i wished it was. One could then play the Main-Map, when the Main-Map Movement's and Combat's are concluded, then one could at their discretion, go to a specific Town battle or what-ever and play that next...or just do it on the Main-Map if a qicker battle resolution is desired!.

As the hour's tick by, the player would be/could be alternately playing both Map's as required or desired.

[Kuniworth]

Ok here are the latest pics. Scenario should be ready very soon.

I will do a playtest game with Jersey before the release but so far units are complete as well as most of the terrain and resources. What I would like to have are roads like the ones Fantomas have created.

Some facts;

* There will be 28 turns in total each representing 20 minutes of real time.

* Brigade sized units with some regiments.

* Leader ratings 1-5

* Victory objectives are Le Haie, Papelotte, Mont St. Jean, Hougoumont, Plancenoit, La Belle Alliance.

Here are the war map;

[Retributar]

Kuniworth!,... a very 'Admirable Effort', no-matter how it results!.

I will be very interested to read how the game mechanic's work out, it look's like a good bit of fun!, and who know's,...mayby an actual campaign of the entire effort leading up to 'The Battle Of Waterloo' may/might come out next???.

Need some WAV. music bit's to accentuate the game, to give it that historical flavour???. For example when one accesses the 'Wellington HQ' or the 'Napoleone HQ',...a short historical time period Music-Burst could then be initiated?. Also commands to 'Forward-Marche', and orders to begin the 'Artillerie Barrage',to 'Form Square' or the 'Cavalry Charge' could hopefully be found at WAV. sites to be put into the game?.

[ November 26, 2006, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: Retributar ]

[JerseyJohn]

Kuni,

Looking forward to our game, regardless of which side we have the AAR should be a lot of fun. I'm thinking of the British film, Charge of the Light Brigade, from 1968, which showed the craziness of the British gentleman officers and was really a riot; in a sad sort of way.

It will be interesting to see how the game plays. Waterloo was always interesting even on paper maps without any fog of war. Despite the things that can't be done on a tactical scale with this system, the scenario should be several steps up from the old boardgame versions I remember from the 60s and 70s.

[Capt Andrew]

Just (finally) gave this mod a try. Very, VERY, nice job Kuni! If anyone hasn't tried this mini-campaign, it's pretty fun. Even against the AI.

Just some random thoughts:

- For balance, I'd have the Prussian units arrive at half their current strength. They accumulate MPP for some time, so they hvae enough to start reinforcing some units.

- Even though Napolean and Ney made some historical errors, I'd recommend raising their HQ rating to 8-10 and/or their unit strength to 8-10.

- It would be nice if Artillery units that are on a ridge crest, would get +1 to spotting and attack range. Don't know how you could do this, but it would make more sense.

- As for spotting, I think upping the spot range of the HQ's makes sense, but I would lower the HQ defense ratings (making protection of the general's that much more critical).

- RE: Action points. Don't quote me, but I seem to recall that action points weren't always working. IE. - A unit with 3 action points could attack and still move 3 tiles, instead of the 2 it should.

Nice job Kuni.

[TaoJah]

Wouldn't it be more realistic without fog of war ? The scale of the Waterloo battleground was so small that there couldn't have been alot of surprise encounters like on a Western-European scale (altough there were some surprises at Waterloo, including a last minute apperance of infantry units surrounding the Franch Old Guard, if I remember correct).

[Blashy]

It plays by default with FoW off. Makes sense to me.

I like the mod alot.