supply rule ?

[SMG42]

Hi,

I have a problem understanding the supply rule. I have read the manual several times on that part, and the situation I suffer from is still unexplained to me.

I have Manstein HQ at a 3 squares of Kharkov (that I control), all the squares in the region are mine. Kharkov is level 3, as it suffered from russian winter event.

Still my HQ is at supply level 5. The manual says that if you are in range of a city of level 1-5, you have a supply level of 8.

I first though that it was the mud effect, but even halved, German HQ have a range of 6 giving 3 in mud, and I would still be in range.

And anyway, I have my Finn HQ tracing back supply to Helsinki, 6 squares away, all in mud...

The sole explaination that I see is that the manual is incorrect.

Another question, why sometime even at level 5 Tobrouk don't accept unloading units?

[Terif]

A HQ has to get supply from a city to be in supply. Calculate supply like for any normal unit and when the HQ gets one or more supply, then it is in supply.

I.e. if a city is at 3, then your HQ has to be within 2 (clear) hexes (3-2=1). With 3 hexes away, it will get no supply (3-3=0).

[Ottosmops]

As I understand this:

Kharkov = supply 3

Distance 1 from it = supply 2

Distance 2 from it = supply 1

Distance 3 from it = supply 0

So your HQ is on a tile with supply 0 and therefore acts itself as a supply source of 5 for other units.

If Kharkov goes to 4, your HQ is at a tile with supply 1 and will have supply 8 for other units.

[Blashy]

In short, keep HQs as close to cities as possible

[hellraiser]

the eternal dillema

close to the cities or to the frontline?

[Blashy]

With a range of 5 tiles you can stay as close as possible or use HQs to piggy back.

[SMG42]

yes! ok understood...

Thanks much

[Todd Treadway]

Blashy, when you say piggy back, do you mean that you can use an HQ to put another HQ in supply for purposes of that other HQ then receiving a higher supply level and extending supply even further? I thought that an HQ could only use supply from a city to get the higher supply level.

[pzgndr]

HQs do not piggyback off each other for determining their HQ supply level. The user manual covers all this. If it's still a little confusing, players should experiment with different supply situations in a game and see for themselves how things work. Seeing is believing.

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Todd Treadway:

Blashy, when you say piggy back, do you mean that you can use an HQ to put another HQ in supply for purposes of that other HQ then receiving a higher supply level and extending supply even further? I thought that an HQ could only use supply from a city to get the higher supply level.

No, my wording was confusing, pzgdr explained it better.

[SeaMonkey]

Is this different than SC1....the HQ linking effect? IIRC in SC1 one HQ could link to another to provide supply to combat units.

Usually the linked HQ would be withing 3 APs of the linking HQ which was itself within 4 APs of a city of at least 5 supply.

Like this city >=5supply to linking HQ within 4 APs(HQ=8 supply) to linked HQ(within 3 APs=8supply) to units = 8 Supply-APs to linked HQ?

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by pzgndr:

HQs do not piggyback off each other for determining their HQ supply level. The user manual covers all this. If it's still a little confusing, players should experiment with different supply situations in a game and see for themselves how things work. Seeing is believing.

The manual is VERY unclear about it, to be honest. I read the section like 5 times and still don't understand it.

I tried alot of things in Russia to see what works, but in the end it's the same : it's totally unpredictable if units are in supply or not.

Sometimes the HQ has 10 supply, sometimes 8, there is no way of knowing what it will get a certain turn.

Yes, you can make a chain of two HQ's : one HQ can supply another. But if you don't now if your first HQ will have 8 or 10 supply, you can't really rely on it. And that 2nd HQ can't supply a 3th HQ.

In short, it's a mess.

IMHO : when a HQ has a free path to a city, it should be in full supply. End of rule.

[Retributar]

WhyNot have 'HQ's show a 'Supply-Indicator' value at all times [Option to toggle on or off]...as this would remove all-the-mystery concerning 'Supply Capacity'!.

[SMG42]

its ok for me now that I got the explaination. Reread the first 3 posts, it makes senses.

A related question, with the russian winter event: when it strikes, it reduces to 0 the captured russian cities, right? So if I have an HQ on a city, after one turn of supply level 5, I'm already at 8 right?

If yes, then its not how I would have implemented the russian winter It would have been preferable to divide by 2 the readyness of enemy units in russia.

[pzgndr]

In short, it's a mess.

No, it's complicated and takes a little effort to understand. But it's the same supply rules from SC1 and most players can deal with it.

So if I have an HQ on a city, after one turn of supply level 5, I'm already at 8 right?

It would have been preferable to divide by 2 the readyness of enemy units in russia.

Right. The supply event script for Russian Winter applies a random reduction to occupied Russian cities, so this in turn affects HQ supply and unit readiness. There's nothing in the game that directly affects unit readiness as you suggest, other than the morale effect for country surrender.

WhyNot have 'HQ's show a 'Supply-Indicator' value at all times [Option to toggle on or off]

Yeah, this would be a useful enhancement for new players to be able to see the calculated supply value for each tile. Experienced players probably already have an intuitive feel for the supply situation and only periodically check some units.

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by pzgndr:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> In short, it's a mess.

No, it's complicated and takes a little effort to understand. But it's the same supply rules from SC1 and most players can deal with it.

</font>

[pzgndr]

No, they're not.

Yes, they are. If you believe otherwise, then start listing whatever changes you think were made. Be specific. Hubert might like to know too.

In SC I you could make a line of HQ into Russia.

Yeah, and so? You still have HQs tracing supply back to valid supply sources, ie cities and NOT other HQs. An out-of-supply HQ providing minimum supply 5 CANNOT boost another out-of-supply HQ to provide more than supply 5 to other units.

Plus you didn't have random weather effects that ruin your suplly in Russia.

Welcome to weather effects, where the Soviet Winter event affects supply source (city) strength, which affects HQ and unit supply, which then affects unit readiness. The supply rules remain the same. Weather itself sometimes affects unit AP but not terrain movement costs, so this should not be affecting supply.

Hopefully this helps clarify a few things.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

It's the same supply rules from SC1 and most players can deal with it.

You still have HQs tracing supply back to valid supply sources, ie cities and NOT other HQs.

Then the rules AREN'T the same. :confused: :confused: :confused:

[SeaMonkey]

Have to agree with JD2. The rules for SC2 say there is not a supply enhancement for units tracing supply to an HQ linked HQ.

Only the final linked HQ receives a supply benefit. I figure so that it can get out of the mountains.

But I haven't modelled it!

[Hubert Cater]

Gentlemen,

As far as I know it is the same but I think what may be going on here is that the understanding of what was happening in SC1 was not ever entirely accurate and it has just been clarified in the manual for SC2.

If you do find that it is not the same as in SC1 send me a saved game file and I'll gladly take a look

[pzgndr]

the understanding of what was happening in SC1 was not ever entirely accurate and it has just been clarified in the manual for SC2.

To elaborate just a bit more, I wrestled with the original SC1 supply rules and, with Hubert's assistance, tried to clarify them as best as possible in the Strategy Guide a couple years ago. I believe the Strategy Guide language was accurate, and that language was essentially copied into the User Manual since there were no significant changes to the supply rules for SC2.

[TaoJah]

The question is this.

I got a HQ number 1, 8 tiles/hexes from Warshaw.

A HQ number 2, 5 hexes from HQ 1.

A HQ number 3, 5 hexes from HQ 2.

Wasn't it so that in SC1, HQ number 2 would get supply from HQ 1 and passes it on to units, giving them up to suplly 9 if they wear next to HQ 2 ?

From the SCI strategy guide (p 28) : "Friendly Headquarters can be linked to supply each other over extended distances, so it helps to have enough HQ's".

In SC II that's no longer the case, is it ?

From the manual (p 32) : "supply linking provides some marginal benefits to the linked HQ itself, but not for any other units".

The wording is different (and the supply rules were never clear, nor in the manuals, nor in the guide), but I think that's the difference : in SC1 your UNITS attached to HQ 2 got a good suplly, in SC2 they don't anymore.

[pzgndr]

Alright, here's what I wrote in the Strategy Guide, Revised Edition, June 2003, which corrected some previous confusions from the original SC1 User Manual and Strategy Guide, and most of this is repeated in the current User Manual:

The HQ supply function extends to all friendly units within range, including minors and allies. The HQ unit simply serves as a valid supply source. For the HQ to provide maximum supply, it must be in supply itself and have a unit supply value greater than five. At five or less, HQ supply drops to eight. If out of supply, HQ supply drops to five. And distance from a valid supply source is one of the factors that affect any unit's supply, with supply being reduced according to the terrain movement costs (MC) for the virtual supply trucks (e.g., mountains and marshes cost two Action Points (AP) and reduce supply by two for each hex.)

Note that the basic supply rules remained unchanged during SC1, while the descriptions went through a couple of iterations. The same supply rules carried over into SC2.

Wasn't it so that in SC1, HQ number 2 would get supply from HQ 1 and passes it on to units, giving them up to suplly 9 if they wear next to HQ 2?

No, this was never the case. If true, then two out-of-supply HQs should be able to draw supply off each other and then provide greater than supply 5, and you don't see that happening. Two linked Allied HQs in the mountains of Greece drawing supply from Athens should provide pretty good supply into the Balkans, and you don't see that happening either.

I won't disagree with you that all this stuff is complicated. But there ARE rules involved, and I've managed to convince myself and most others that these descriptions are correct. There could of course be a much simpler model where all units that can trace supply get supply, but what we have in this game is a pretty decent logistics model that forces players to consider many tradeoffs while the computer does all the hard math.

the supply rules were never clear, nor in the manuals, nor in the guide

At least four of us, including Hubert, wrestled with the latest wording to accurately convey what all of the supply rules are. If there's a way to make it any clearer, we're open to suggestions.

[TaoJah]

Originally posted by pzgndr:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> the supply rules were never clear, nor in the manuals, nor in the guide

At least four of us, including Hubert, wrestled with the latest wording to accurately convey what all of the supply rules are. If there's a way to make it any clearer, we're open to suggestions. </font>

[pzgndr]

I didn't say they weren't ACCURATE, no doubt they are. It's just that I don't understand them from reading them over and over... But as the manual is now, I had to work the rules out by trying and that's no good.

That's like saying I read the textbook but didn't understand everything until I completed the homework problems.

OK, as time permits I'll try to work on a supply tutorial to help clarify what the manual states and provide some pictures as examples. There are two very fundamental aspects to supply - "normal supply" and "HQ supply" - and understanding the differences and how they affect HQs and regular units differently should help clear up whatever confusion is out there.

If anyone else has some questions or concerns or comments, please post them here and I'll try to come up with something more comprehensive and comprehendable. Or maybe not. We'll see.