Help me like this game

[PanzerMike]

I downloaded the 1.07 demo last weekend and fiddled around with it. I was not too impressed.

I love strategic wargames ever since I played Eastern Front '41 on my Atari 800XL. I have played many different games through the years since then.

Last game I have played (and I'm still playing) is Hoi2/DD/ARM and I love it (despite the many bugs, aaaargh).

I admire a guy like Hubert who has made this labour of love called SC2. Must be a daunting task to develop a game on your own. Maybe I am missing some things with the demo? I really want to like this game, but right now I am not convinced.

My gaming time is limited with 2 small children so I realy only want to invest in something that is really good! Please tell me why you like this game and I could grow to like it too.

[ October 16, 2007, 02:12 AM: Message edited by: PanzerMike ]

[J P Wagner]

It would help if you would be more specific about what you were not impressed with and why you are not convinced that it would be a good game for you. Then we can understand your point of view and respond accordingly.....

[PanzerMike]

Okay here is my more detailed expression of playing the demo for about an hour:

The graphics and sound are very basic even for a wargame. I am no eye candy addict (Hoi2 graphics are not stellar either), but this is VERY basic.

What is going on with combat? I have a 10 INF and want to attack a enemy 10 INF. How do I know if this is a good idea or not? I really don't have a clue how to plan my attack.

Hoi has a LOT of divisions on the map (perhaps too many), but number of units on the SC2 map seem minimal to me. No stacking, no attacking from multiple directions.

Diplomacy seems very basic as does research.

Again, I am a longtime wargamer (Microprose, SSI, ThreeSixty, etc.), not a total noob at this. But SC2 seems to me to be very simple and bland. Is the demo doing the game justice? Or can you only appreciate this game by playing a real campaign?

[Blashy]

BE more detailed and also wait until the WaW demo, it has more in it without making it more complicated.

[PowerGmbH]

I must say you will discover the interisting this game is only after knowing more details. its not so easy like Age of Empires III where you have fun from the first moment on.

this is more like CHESS, where one MUST take experience as to love it. If you like CHESS i think you can love this also, it seems easy like chess on the first look, but it really is'nt.

[Lars]

Originally posted by PanzerMike:

What is going on with combat? I have a 10 INF and want to attack a enemy 10 INF. How do I know if this is a good idea or not? I really don't have a clue how to plan my attack.

If you look at the top of the screen, you will see the expected outcome.

[n0kn0k]

Trust me you will like this game

The main euro campaign is so well balanced, and the AI is the best in the business.

Not to mention the wicked editor and continuous development with each patch.

[PanzerMike]

@Blashy

I will wait for the new WaW demo and have another look. I must say that the feature list of the upcoming expansion looks impressive.

@powergmbh

I love chess. So what you are saying is, it takes a few playings to start appreciating this game in all it's details. So the demo is cutting the game a little short.

@lars

Oops, missed that. I am at work right now, but will have another look when I find the time.

@nOknOk

The AI is best in the business you say, that's quite a claim Is the AI moddable as in HoI?

Thanks for your comments so far. Any of you guys play HoI2/DD? It is probably comparing apples and oranges, but how does HoI2/DD compare to SC2 in your opinion? Hoi2/DD is VERY moddable. How about SC2, any good mods yet?

[Moonslayer]

@nOknOk

The AI is best in the business you say, that's quite a claim Is the AI moddable as in HoI?

Modding the ai is simplicity itself and you can make it as simplistic or as complicated as you like. Modding the units and graphics is so straight forward and logical that a trained chimp would barely find it a challenge.

I have HoI and HoI2 and personally, I find SC2WaW to be far superior to both (I prefer HoI to HoI2, however). HoI has a couple of features that SC2 misses out on but overall SC2 is the better game.

If you want to take a look at the range of mods available for SC2 then try www.cmmods.com for size. You will find mods ranging from Waterloo to global WWII. You will find new unit sprites and ambiance enhancing scripts. You will even find a mod of War of the Worlds (shameless plug) which alters virtually every feature it is possible to mod.

Mods for the new SC2WaW are in production even as I type. Several of the Beta team are working on projects, myself included. These will surface once the game has been released to the general population.

SC2 is definitely the game to choose... It's the game I prefer and I came into it after discovering HoI.

[n0kn0k]

Originally posted by PanzerMike:

@nOknOk

The AI is best in the business you say, that's quite a claim Is the AI moddable as in HoI?

Yeh in the turn based wargaming business it is

And it's easy to mod also. And I'm not the only one with this oppinion

[Big Dog]

I have HoI/Doomsday as well and appreciate its detail. SC is certainly more abstract than HoI. But SC has one thing going for it over HoI. You can finish a game during your lifetime.

[SeaMonkey]

SC is like an old plain jane Chevy at first glimpse, nothing special........ until you open the hood.

Kind of like my Buicks, vanilla Regals, black and white.....but as the hood creaks to revelation.

Custom made, balanced and blueprinted, 3.8 liters, 231 cubic inches of sheer power with an elegant touch.

"Going Fast with Class" sums up the gameplay and experience.

[PanzerMike]

SeaMonkey, are you the same monkey I saw at the CEAW forum? I have not tried CEAW, what do you think of it?

[Liam]

SC2 and the new patch that is arriving shows the latest and greatest in WW2 Strategic Level warfare. There are several other titles that are likeable, but the lack something... A dedicated Multiplayer Crew...

I tried to find a World at War Match when I purchased it, noone showed up! I have seen few and few MP strategy games based on WW2 with a following. Since Axis & Allies many years ago SC2 has one of the largest Fan Bases, that and Hearts of Iron

So it's a tough choose but you're pretty much locked into to the two if you want the Multiplayer action as AI action is very very limited, why Civilizations new releases are in my opinion very lagging...

CEAW, Commander Europe At War looks nice.. It needs time to grow and gather a following and to be expanded

Making History, been Demo-ing it, has mixed reviews, neat but seems to be lacking Mulitplayer as well and the scale isn't like Hearts of Iron, very cosmetic. Neat if you could find Friends to play but not the historical feel of SSI Genre Games... HOI has more of it, SC some. CEAW some

as for tactical warfare There are limited titles out there I can inform you on but ask others

[SeaMonkey]

PM, yes.

What do you want to sail, a dingy or a yacht?

This is the slip where the yacht resides.

[borsook]

As a long time HOI fan I must say that what appealed to me in SC2 is the fact that this is a game with an AI that can be really challenging. True as far as detail and realism go it cannot come nowhere near to HOI series but in HOI cannot cope with a lot of features, hence it uses a different rule set than the player and still it is not very challenging. SC2 can provide that challenge, and AI is capable of using all its features and many diverse tactics. For me the challenge equals fun, plus the game has about ten times less bugs than HOI, so the player avoids a lot of frustration.

That said I have to disagree with the claim that SC2 AI is the best in turn based strategies, that's surely GalCiv2.

[Liam]

Bor, I didn't know that Galaxy Civ 2 was that advanced with it's AI... is it anything like MOO2 was? Oh, how I miss that beautiful Gem, then they had to go mess it up with MOO3

as far as HOI, since it's 10 Xs more detailed I suppose that's why it's 10 Xs more buggy. I find it's AI as boring as it gets, generally once you learn the game mechanics you can win with any substandard Country by just doing some smart micromanagement, but maybe that's true of all Wargames vs AI that give you a lot of time. One thing I have had a hard time getting over with HOI is it's resemblance to EU1, 2... So much so that I feel a bit bogged down. As it's not match in simplicity and Perfection to that engine so why emulate it? I suppose because it's easy for the designer... I say I admire that the designer of SC2 went from Hexagons to Tiles, and succeeded, I prefer neither as I like Civ...

[targul]

Other then the lack of hexes this game has the most historical and playable balance of all the games I have found so far.

I have played and do play all the games you mentioned most have things I like some I dont.

AI is admireable in this game. Hard to beat and cunning which is difficult to find in most AI.

As to your question about CEAW I play that also. Good game that has NO historical bias. This makes the game unrealistic to me but it is very playable and fun. Good AI in most areas but the Med.

The diplomacy is lacking in this game but much better then anyother out there at this point. At least it does have diplomacy.

This game has only 2 flaws, in my opinion.

1) player vs player is not controled by diplomatic actions adequately so it makes for such ahistorical play that I no long play without the AI.

2) Lack of hexes makes it very difficult to keep track of ranges and supply.

This is a definite buy and with the preorder for WAW NOW is the time to do just that.

[PanzerMike]

I like Hoi2/DDA a lot, it is really impressive. I don't play vanilla, only the TRP mod. That mod rocks! So much better than vanilla, no comparison, totally different game. The AI is quite good too, Lothos does a good job in improving upon the vanilla AI (he was involved in vanilla AI too). So for all you Hoi players out here, do try TRP. You will probably not regret it.

SC2 is starting to look interesting too. It seems there is quite a gem underneath the somewhat drab exterior. I can live with subpar visuals, as long as the engine underneath is good. With WaW imminent I may just have to give this puppy a spin. I will probably play the WaW demo first before I buy though.

Anyone play CMSF here? I played the hell out of CMxI and preordered CMSF. After playing with it for a few hours I put it down and have not looked at it since. Supposedly things have improved with 1.04.

[PanzerMike]

Just played the demo some more. I finished the 1940 scenario playing the Axis. I'm starting to get it now. I also browsed the manual a little.

Some observations/questions

1) Tiles instead of hexes? Why?

2) No stacking? Scharnhorst in port -> port full?

3) Royal Navy in the Channel bombarding (and hurting) my units. Hmmmmm.

I like the fact that the air units auto intercept, less micromanagement. Need to learn more about how subs and ships work. I think I can see why this game can be fun. It's WW2-lite but pretty neat nonetheless.

[n0kn0k]

You got it spot on there

Most things in the game are an abstraction.

Things like supply, weather morale etc.

All have been debated and represent some part of real life events.

All designed to make it more fun to play and less tedious.

Same thing goes for diplomacy.

If you spend your mpp there, you will fall short on other fronts.

If you overspend on tech research, you will fall short on troop numbers.

There's a fine line to walk, and unlimited possibilities.

Just check the forums for some AAR's.

In WaW terrain, road/rail and Weather will even play a bigger part then it does now.

[Konigs]

How about two years of great gaming fun, made new by each patch, which is heavily influenced by YOU the customer. Personal attention by the Battlefront heirarchy as required. Battlefront forums, Panzerliga led by Terif, a true class act by hisself. The forums albeit, sometimes comical, are very in depth with discussions that are great for WWII junkies like myself. Let's see what am I forgetting, oh yeah the SC2 game is far in away the best one on the market that covers all aspects in some form or fashion. It has been upgraded steadily since its inception, yes it does lead to some ahistorical strategies, but in all reality they were all a true possibilty. Hitler could have decided to invade Spain to choke off the Med via the capture of Gibralter. The minor grab that so many dislike really happened anyway, except for Spain, Switz, Turkey and Sweden. All else was either taken by Allies or Axis, except those mentioned above. Again I like the HOI, CEAW and Making History, but they never last more than a month. The HvsH by PBEM is my favorite way to play and meet peoples. SO, PANZERMIKE, Konigs says a must buy....

As always, just my two cents worth.....

[borsook]

Originally posted by PanzerMike:

Some observations/questions

1) Tiles instead of hexes? Why?

IIRC it was done because of technical reason for the AI not because tiles are superior. I miss hexes too (esp when doing encirclements) but once you get used to tiles you stop minding them.

[Liam]

I think people often forget how hard it would have been to take Turkey-SpainPortugal-Switzerland or Sweden... The devotion in resources and the Political Cost, Germany swept through what they did because it was on the way to their goals, most Little Europs jumped on board free of charge.. Yugoslavia probably would've joined the Axis, Greeks were defiant because of Italy. Norway was for Nickle... Denmark to get to Norway and protect the Straits. So on and so forth, Low Countries bypass Maginot, Poland for Anger, Period. Germany really would only want to fight 1 country, USSR, and subjegate France as was done...

So in a sense after USA enters when the minorgrabbing happens it does appear somewhat Ahistorical, perharps a way do mod this down would be to give MPP Trade from these nations that is more valued than killing them? Increasing each year that the USA and USSR come closer to entering, negating the Minor DOW morale effect

As for Tiles and Hexes, I miss Hexes... Though Tiles I think allowed for a bigger map and probably what was up to date. HOI uses a Territorial Map, which I like but the colors can be dull.. Maps are always difficult to get perfect, hardest part is choosing. I think I might try HOI Doomsday and the new patches, a little worried about the time and energy it might take though to actually go there and do that. Probably like EU2, 5 month games

[asgard]

The graphics and sound are very basic even for a wargame. I am no eye candy addict (Hoi2 graphics are not stellar either), but this is VERY basic.

That means the creaters put efforts on the games perfomance rather graphics. so quality is the priority of this game. Graphics for a any strategy game are more of a luxury rather than a nececesity. A positive from this is you do not need a fancy video card to play this game. Anyone can play it.

Originally posted by PanzerMike:

Just played the demo some more. I finished the 1940 scenario playing the Axis. I'm starting to get it now. I also browsed the manual a little.

Some observations/questions

1) Tiles instead of hexes? Why?

2) No stacking? Scharnhorst in port -> port full?

3) Royal Navy in the Channel bombarding (and hurting) my units. Hmmmmm.

I like the fact that the air units auto intercept, less micromanagement. Need to learn more about how subs and ships work. I think I can see why this game can be fun. It's WW2-lite but pretty neat nonetheless.

1)tiles vs hexes. I don't think any game can replicate actual ww2 encirclements. Playing against another person, it will not work. We all know how ww2 played out, blitzkrieg, envelop the enenmy, thus massive envelops will not happen unless you willingly do not retreat from an enemy offensive. It is why this game does not have massive encirclements, the destructions of enemy units symbolises it.

Since this is multi-player game you cant have a dum AI that gets encircled but when playing against another person you end up chasing a retreating enemy with forces intact gaining strength. The game wouldn't not be balanced, become unrealistic and not fun to play.

2) You can't stack, but if you place your extra naval units adjacent to the port, they would still be suplied(level 9). So having naval battles near your ports= advantage because your units would be better supplied than the enemy. the only limit of ports is that you can repair or upgrade one naval unit per port per turn.

3)bring you crusiers at the port in holland and engage the royal navy with planes and crusiers(keep your cruisers next to the port) than finish off their battleships and carrier with your subs from the north. Every time a naval unit is nearly destroyed send them to the ports of north or baltic sea and repair them than send them back to the channel. The Brits don't have the mmp to keep up.

regarding planes, left click on them and check out the stuff you can do. you can make a plane unit to intercept or stay grounded.

subs are good against battleships, crusiers are good against subs.

I've only played the demo myself and the game looks very promising. Try being the allies and keep the Germans from capturing France until the demo is over. Or be germany in d-day and win. Than you'lle see how awsome this game is.