Gavrok Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 that means german intel is worth far more than allied intel as it impacts more countries... immediately think this is a potent tool if axis go down this route.. cant see how allies benefit from this as they have to expend far more to remain in race Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timskorn Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 I think it's pretty underrated. I've been using it more in my games lately, as it's a relatively cheap investment at 75 MPP's and if your opponent isn't researching it a 2% or more decrease can make a huge difference to my (and his) research ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzgndr Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 cant see how allies benefit from this If Allies invest and get intel advances and Axis don't bother, then there's a benefit. It's the old rock-paper-scissors gamble... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 Originally posted by Gavrok: that means german intel is worth far more than allied intel as it impacts more countries... immediately think this is a potent tool if axis go down this route.. cant see how allies benefit from this as they have to expend far more to remain in race they can have an advantage over many more techs though, since the Axis cannot cover them al. and of course if they do NOT invest then the Germans get easier tech advances - which isn't a good thing!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blashy Posted May 31, 2006 Share Posted May 31, 2006 Originally posted by Gavrok: that means german intel is worth far more than allied intel as it impacts more countries... immediately think this is a potent tool if axis go down this route.. cant see how allies benefit from this as they have to expend far more to remain in race Not so, in one game the Allies had lots of Intel tech and until July 44 I was stuck with level 2 IW and Level 3 tanks as Axis, while the russians had level 5 tanks and USA had level 3 IW. I had no intel as Germany until Spring of 44, when it became obvious I was never going to get anything. I had 2 chits in HT for level 4, that's 4% per turn, if USSR had Intel level 5 that was -5% against me, so I was blocked from getting anything without me investing in Tech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bromley Posted June 1, 2006 Share Posted June 1, 2006 hehe. I'm becoming confused about intel again. Blashy's post at the end of page one is the one that's throwing me. Per pzgnrd's post quoted below, intel only helps, it never hurts. That is, the intel bonus is separate to (a) the standard chance (5,4,3,2,1%) and ( the catchup bonus. A negative intel bonus will not reduce your chances (other than by setting your intel bonus to zero). Blashy seems to be saying that (a) both side researching at the same time affects the equation (as opposed to relative realised tech levels) and ( that a negative intel bonus does reduce your base chance. Who's right (or have I not understood something )? Originally posted by pzgndr: OK, step through this. 1. Do YOU have a chit invested? 2. Does an opponent have a higher tech level in that area, regardless of whether HE has anything invested currently? 3. Then the standard catchup bonus would apply. 4. Compare intel tech difference. A net positive value would then give YOU an additional bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted June 1, 2006 Share Posted June 1, 2006 Seems even beta testers can get confused by research and intel . According to the manual (and I assume here the manual is right ) it is: - normal research chance = % chance per turn = (5% -> 4% -> 3% -> 2% -> 1%) * applicable points in category - bonus chance = (% + highest enemy level - current level +/- intelligence modifiers) * applicable points in category The normal research chance can only be increased if a level of difference exists; it can never be reduced. i.e. Intelligence can never block enemy research, it can only eliminate additional bonuses via tech differences and you will still have the normal research chance for each chit invested . So Intelligence is pretty unimportant as my games so far confirm - doesn´t matter much if you have intel 0 or 5...makes perhaps a difference for getting level 4/5 in a tech since there you have only a normal research chance of 2/1% per chit which can eventually be boosted by intel considerably - if the enemy got lucky before you and is ahead in this tech area... But in combat techs it usually only affects tank tech anyway since the others are capped or usually not researched. But if you have there level 3 or 5 makes not much difference - an enemy unit is dead with 1-2 shots in any case . [ June 01, 2006, 03:38 AM: Message edited by: Terif ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Spinello Posted June 1, 2006 Share Posted June 1, 2006 @everybody: Great thread, very helpful posts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaoJah Posted June 3, 2006 Share Posted June 3, 2006 As I said before, Intel is too important at the moment, it's a MUST HAVE. Three cases to illustrated the HUGE effect of having Intel. His level of Advanced Airplane = 0 My level of Advanced Airplane = 0 His level of Intel = 0 My level of Intel = 5 And I buy 5 chits in Advanced Airplane. Then my base chance is 25% as normal. Plus... (highest enemy level - current level +/- intelligence modifiers) * applicable points in category = (0 - 0 + 5) * 5 = 25. So now I got a 50% chance of researching Advanced Infantry : Intel doubled my chances for research. -------- His level of Advanced Airplane = 4 My level of Advanced Airplane = 4 His level of Intel = 0 My level of Intel = 5 And I buy 5 chits in Advanced Airplane. Then my base chance is 5% as normal. Plus... (highest enemy level - current level +/- intelligence modifiers) * applicable points in category = (4 - 4 + 5) * 5 = 25. So my total chance is 30%, SIX TIMES AS MUCH as I would have without any Intel. -------- His level of Advanced Airplane = 5 My level of Advanced Airplane = 0 His level of Intel = 0 My level of Intel = 5 And I buy 5 chits in Advanced Airplane. Then my base chance is 25% as normal. Plus... (highest enemy level - current level +/- intelligence modifiers) * applicable points in category = (5 - 0 + 5) * 5 = 50. Total chance is 75%, three times as much as I would have without any Intel. -------- It's way too overpowered, it is a tech that you ALWAYS have to max out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted June 3, 2006 Share Posted June 3, 2006 Sorry TaoJah, you missed the most important part : the normal research chance can only be increased if a level of difference exists So in your example 1+2, intel makes no difference at all since there is no tech difference and research chance is only 25% (1) and 5% (2). Even your 5 intel levels difference give you only 0% additionally. In example 3 you have without intel a chance of 50% (not 25), intel only increases it by 25% - but this example is pretty unrealistic anyway, 5 tech levels difference in both areas...never going to happen . Besides, you first have to research intel before you can have any advantage AND the enemy has to be more lucky than you so he is ahead in tech . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blashy Posted June 3, 2006 Share Posted June 3, 2006 Intel is only 1% per level, not 5%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaoJah Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 Originally posted by Terif: In example 3 you have without intel a chance of 50% (not 25), intel only increases it by 25%Why only 25 ? According to the formula it should be an extra 50, no ? And where do you get that you can only increase it when there is already a difference ? The manual says that "However, the normal research chance can only be increased if a level of difference exist; it can never be be reduced". You can read that in three ways : the only time there is any effect is when there is a difference in level OR the chance can only be increases, never decreased (my way of reading it) OR both (your way of reading it). It's all very unclear. Also... What happens if the US has the highest level of Advanced Infantry and the UK the highest level of intel ? Would the forumla use the US level of AI and the UK's level of INT ? Or the US's in both ? Or the UK's in both ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellraiser Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 When do you guys have time to put intel chits at work anyway? At 750 mpps cap, Germany can forget about it. Maybe USA and Russia can afford it but will it help? Nope, this tech is useless at least for H2H games. Maybe against the AI it can be fun to goof around with intel, but vs a human...you really do not have the time for it. Tip: when playing Axis, the first thing i do during the first turn is to scrap the rocket and intel chit so I can sink 4 chits in diplo ASAP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terif Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 @TaoJah: - Tech and also intel are compared on a per country bases, i.e. if there is a tech difference between USA and Germany in IW, then it will be looked if there is an intel difference between those two countries (and not UK, Russia or any other country) - only if an enemy country has a tech advantage in the specific area you are researching, then you will get 1% additional chance per chit for each intel level you are in the advantage against this enemy country. - since you can max have an intel difference of 5 and also max 5 chits in a tech area, your max increase by intel is 25% (your 3rd example) But lastly this is more or less an academical question as Hellraiser already pointed out : Intel only increases your chances marginal except in the higher level regions (lv 4-5) and you simply don´t need it - especially not with the mpp cap for research in version 1.02 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaoJah Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 Well, for me the VERY FIRST THING to do is to get Advanced infantry ASAP. There is no way I can hold the Russian front with my corpses if they're not level 3. And I though it goes faster to get to level 3 when I also have some Intel. So I put 500MPP in Advanced Infantry plus 225 in Intel, buying more when I gain a level in either of the two. Once I get to Advanced Infantry 3, I recycle the 4 point in it and buy 5 chits in Intel plus 3 in motorization. When I got motorization, I buy research for heavy tanks. By that time I usualy have 5 intel, so I can sell the remaining and put 5 points in heavy tanks (plus some in something silly like Industrial technology or so). Originally posted by Terif: - since you can max have an intel difference of 5 and also max 5 chits in a tech area, your max increase by intel is 25% (your 3rd example)Ah, I see where I was wrong : I get an extra 25% from the fact that he is 5 steps ahead plus 25 from Intel ! Hmmmm... I got to rethink this. And since it's 30° celsius outside and the sun is shining, I'll rethink it on a terras with a cold drink ! [ June 12, 2006, 06:15 AM: Message edited by: TaoJah ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolend Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 Yep for me as an Axies player it is much more important to get those 5 chits into Spain VERY early and leaves int on the short end of the stick. I do agree that as Axies getting IW to 3 as quick as possible really helps in Russia for either defense or offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sombra Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 How about: - Spreading out tech more (more tech levels) - Downgrading the combot impotance of tech (for example by 50%) - Away with the tech caps (IF I want I can hire the scientists I want) - Increase cost of key techs for example for tech 200-250MP per point? ................................... I think this will improve game play , give intelligence back some meaning and allow minors to have some combat value Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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