AAR Hellraiser (Allies) vs Terif (Axis)

[Terif]

Here our rematch with switched sides and the same rules as last time:

1. No allied DoW to USA allowed. Rome gambit forbidden (i.e. no attack at Rome in the first turn of DoW)

2. Italy, USA and Russia are not allowed to move transports or ships away from their coast before they are at war. Exception: Italy is allowed to move transports and ships from port to port.

3. Axis has to take Cairo as soon as possible after they defeated the defenders.

First AAR can be found here .

War starts and Germany moves cautiously forward towards Warschau, trying not to harm the peaceful polish units standing around them. German soldiers couldn´t believe their eyes when in the following allied turn polish soldiers threw their protection suits away and with „kamikaze“ cries on their lips looked for the next tank in the vicinity to kill as much as possible of themselves. The survivors jumped in front of the tank cannons up and down, singing the refrain: „please kill us“, but the germans didn´t want to...

At least Poland surrendered in turn 2, fortunately without too much killed Poles, so plunder was ok with 277 mpps.

After the experience in Poland, German command abolished the idea to attack immediately in the west: Winter weather would kill too many french soldiers before Germany could reach Paris to end the suffering. So invasion got scheduled for Spring 1940.

Since in February there was still snow, invasion started April 7, 1940: Both Benelux and Denmark surrendered. French formed a defence line at Paris. Next turn german tanks reached Paris by carefully operating only 2 single armies out of the key positions, trying not to harm other healthy french units around them. But in the allied turn the same fever already seen in Poland infested the french units...they threw away all their clothes, running to the next tank throwing themselves between the chains when the tank crew didn´t look and chanted the typical song for this madness „please kill us, please..“

Unfortunately there was bad weather the following turn, so no unit was able to enter Paris and France got another chance to kamikaze its units. But June 30, 1940 finally the french suffering got ended.

Meanwhile Allies gathered in the Med nearly their whole fleet, including 2 french ships (but they surrendered with France). After Italy joined strong allied ground forces including BEF army attacked Tobruk and managed to kill an italian corps before german HQ with several armies and AFs arrived in Africa and could end the siege. During this landing operation Italy sent its fleet into a huge naval battle to clear the sea path to Africa and lost a battleship and a cruiser in the operation, UK 3 ships and a carrier due to heavy axis airsupport. So Royal Navy had to retreat and since their return path to Egypt was cut off they moved towards Gibraltar.

But due to the „Sitzkrieg“ during the 1939 Winter, Germany invested heavily into diplo (in contrary to England that sent its mpps to Egypt) and so Spain already joined the axis cause and was in the same moment sieging Gibraltar. England exchanged the defender once to enable its fleet to escape, but there was no escape any more. The german fleet already guarded the gate and sunk 2 allied cruiser near Portugal. So even if Gibraltar had survived long enough, the battered english Med fleet would have been lost. So in the end Allies lost in or around the Med 3 cruiser, 4 battleships and all 3 carriers vs only 2 italian ships and a spanish cruiser.

To conquer Egypt was no problem any more with enough air and even naval support with shore bombardment and Axis conquered the country without own losses – nobody escaped except the airfleet.

After this it was preparation time for Barbarossa. Researching, unit building and raiding the Atlantic with the 4 axis subs (3 german, 1 italian). Syria got conquered and Iraq joined Axis.

After Spain England invested now also into diplo and increased russian readiness 10% towards war. So Barbarossa started with August 1941 a bit earlier than in the first game.

Allies also established a backward defence at Leningrad-Moskow and Sevastopol-Kharkov.

No russian attack at Finland, but they joined freely when Axis approached Leningrad and soon after conquered it with the help of some experienced german AFs. During this operation, Russia started a counterattack near Kharkov where the german line was a bit thin and killed a corps.

But Axis already grew much too strong, so Russia had no real chance any more. Simultaneously Axis attacked via Iran into the Caucasus. Since the russian main forces were at Kharkov, only some corps in the cities defended, the fight was soon over and Caucasus with its 3 oilfields conquered.

Germany had the full amount of HQs, tanks and corps and short after Barbarossa start also nearly all available armies. Axis income was above 500 mpps/turn despite no real luck in Industry technology (Level 2 with 5+1 chits invested there). Not only in numbers Germany was superior, also in tech with soon maxed out ground techs in all areas (Barbarossa started with HT 4, IW 2, Motor 1, AT 2 – until Summer 1942 they were all at maximum).

Perhaps Russia would still have had a slight chance, but its commander was not willing to give up russian territory and defended every city with corps/armies and lost a lot of armies one by one at Kharkov, Moskow and Vologda. Since at this time he was technologically far behind with only IW 1, AT 1, HT 2 and Motor 1, they had no real chance to win these battles and Russia lost too many valuable units that revenged later.

In front of Rostov the last huge battle started when 5 russian tanks (now Heavy Tank 3) together with several armies and corps attacked the german spearheads that were at low supply and killed 4 of them including a tank and an army. But he attacked too aggressive, so the retaliation was shocking: several armies/corps killed immediately and all 5 tanks cut off and killed without supply in the following turn.

At the same time western Allies attacked the blockade fleet at Ireland with everything they had left including several bombers and an AF. A bloody battle occured including landings at Brest to attack a sub just resupplying at port. After several turns Royal Navy finally lost every single ship left + an amphibious transport and USA also 3 of its 4 ships. Axis navy was also quite battered with 6 ships lost. But still had all 4 subs, 2 battleships and 3 cruisers left.

After this the game was over for sure and Axis wondered why Allies didn´t surrender – but they still had a surprise in their sleeves . When Axis approached the last 2 russian ground units that hided in the Urals together with 2 AFs, US Paratroopers with Long Range 4 landed in Berlin !

Nice move, nevertheless didn´t help Allies any more:

Germany had Munich as a second capital and even if they would have captured it too: every german unit gives 3% chance the country continues fighting and minor units subtracted, Germany anyway had 40+ units in combat and therefore 100% survival chance .

And so after their last secret weapon failed, Allies finally surrendered in September 1942 .

Conclusion:

Similar situation as in SC 1 – as long as Axis doesn´t know the basics and which triggers what, the game should be balanced for both sides. But if Axis knows how to play its side and especially the readiness triggers, then Allies are in a clear disadvantage. At the start of Barbarossa Axis was already so strong, not much could have stopped them.

[Fartknock3r]

Nooo hellraiser, my money was on you. Great AAR. That was a nice move on berlin, even though it didnt take terif out. Im still waiting for hellraiser to beat terif! gg guys. Hope to see more AAR's from you guys in the future!

[Desert Dave]

At the start of Barbarossa Axis was already so strong, not much could have stopped them.

Well, terif,

Playing as Allies

Somehow,

YOU managed... to win.

If you can, I can, and also

Many others.

Various things are being remedied

For first patch.

Then we'll see

What we shall see.

Appreciate ALL the AAR's

And comments and suggestions,

As they help to pin down

Some elusive exploits

And,

Sure, fine-tune the '39 campaign balance.

With so many new!

Variables and complexities,

Not so easy to do,

Unless you,

Like enfant terrible

Suppose it is due

To inept testers?

Nah, yer not like that. :cool:

Hubert is hard at work,

As he HAS BEEN

For over 5 years now.

Coding ALONE,

Know what I mean?

[Liam]

Lordy, where did the Axis get that sort of production? Did HR give away Readiness for free ?

[Terif]

This is the usual production when Axis takes care of the triggers - even a bit low, since Germany was lacking IT. Nothing HR could have done against it - he even increased Russian readiness by 10% via diplomacy. And if Axis would not have won already, they easily could have collected all missing minors when USA and Russia joined which had boosted their economy through the roof.

Hope the first patch will shift it a bit back into balance. Cause at the moment Allies will need again a lot of bonus mpps to have a chance in the long run if Axis knows and recognizes the basic triggers - that everyone can look after in the event scripts.

As long as Axis is commanded by an unexperienced player who doesn´t look at the triggers, game is balanced. But latest after some game (and/or reading AARs and the help threads that soon will be created ), any able player will have a huge advantage with Axis.

P.S.: Axis navy is a bit too strong here, especially the dive percentage of subs is too high. If Axis takes care of its navy, they will not only dominate the ground warfare, but also the seven seas. The only chance of Allies is to get them before Italy and Germany can unite their fleets - combined they are stronger than the UK navy and till USA is in the war, Royal Navy is most likely already toast - even if brought to a save place, at least Axis dominates the seas until then.

[Desert Dave]

Danke Schoene terif,

These kinds of in-depth assessments

Are sehr behilflich! :cool:

**Translation,

For those who never

Were lucky enough to personally see

That quite inspiring cathedral

At Cologne:

"That is one cool SC Cat,

Plucked out of NOBODY's

Camo'd pith helmet nor, some

Cocky-worn fly-boy hat."

Now,

Out to dinner... Greek tonight,

Not because I myself like it, but,

The wife and son do.

Got to... compromise in this life,

Whether it's war-games, or,

Leader/HQ OOB's,

Or changing what is same-old

Into something different, daring

And broken-in new. :cool:

[zmoney]

I like reading your AAR’s. My observation though; maybe if you didn’t play with those rule’s the game would have ended differently. Like if you just played the game as it was made maybe things would have ended differently. So I don’t know how much is the game’s fault or your rules.

I’d be interested to see you play HR again or one of the testers with no rules imposed other than the ones the game already has.

[Blashy]

Well zmoney, some rules they use are in there simply because I forgot to mention some issues prior to release (like being able to DoW USA as UK and take it without a fight). This will be addressed in the next patch.

So is the issue about neutral ships.

The no using amphibious landingson first turn DoW on Majors should not be a house rule IMHO.

[SixthArmy]

US Paratroopers with Long Range 4 landed in Berlin !

sweet

Sadly didn't help but I bet his butt puckered a bit seeing that anyway. Nice move.

[jon_j_rambo]

Actually, the DOW on majors with landings same turn might be able to change. Since you can control their forces prior, the capitals can be protected.

[Terif]

Landings in majors are still allowed. The only forbidden landing is in Rome to force an immediate italian surrender (no attacks at Rome during the first turn of DoW).

With these rules the only disadvantage Allies have is they can´t spot axis subs with neutral transports any more (considered gamey by most players). In contrary: Axis has a slight disadvantage since they are not allowed to avoid taking Cairo to keep US/USSR readiness low.

So in the end these house rules even favour Allies - but after the first patch they will hopefully not be necessary any more anyway, since they only adress things that already are on the patch-list .

[Blashy]

It would be difficult to take Rome, leave it as a possible tactic, if the Italian player does not counter properly, it is his fault.

It is VERY easy to prevent; Army on Rome and a Corps next to it (North or south). Allies won`t be able to take Rome on the 1st turn.

The option should be there, it will force the Axis player to protect Rome or `wing it`.

[vveedd]

Good AAR. Thanks. I am not in the game like you (yet) so my questions are:

1.Triggers for US/USSR readiness are always the same?

2.You plunder more MPP if you kill less enemy?

[Terif]

The key triggers are always the same and defined in the event scripts.

In version 1.0 plunder depends on how much units survive, i.e. if you kill less enemies, then you get more plunder. But this will be changed with one of the next patches.

[vveedd]

Originally posted by Terif:

The key triggers are always the same and defined in the event scripts.

In version 1.0 plunder depends on how much units survive, i.e. if you kill less enemies, then you get more plunder. But this will be changed with one of the next patches.

Thanks God. To my opinion US/USSR readiness triggers should be also connected to time line and real historical dates. For instance: USSR readiness should go up rapidly after 22. June 1941 no matter if it is at war or not with Axis.

MPP plunder should be connected ONLY to time line and real historical dates. In that way Axis player will have time pressure on his back like Axis has had in real history. This less killed enemy situation is ridiculous.

[Terif]

We played another game with me as Axis – again no chance for Allies.

Axis went through Turkey and then in a simultaneous strike via Kharkov and Caucasus into the heart of Russia where Allies surrendered in May 1942.

Despite Allies beeing lucky with diplomacy (Iraq early went up to 34% readiness in favour of Allies - i.e. UK received mpp convois - and Spain never joined Axis despite 10 axis chits in it and 2 readiness hits already in 1939 (69%) and then nothing again any more), they had longterm no chance against Axis that was economically too strong. Only a few turns after Barbarossa started Axis again got (and this time without Spain) over 650 mpps per turn while Russia was below 200...Germany at full force and tech, containing 8 tanks while russian forces were nearly not existant any more.

Allies (especially Russia) need to be strengthened (e.g. some more ressources - 50-100 mpps - in the Urals) to have a chance in the long run and to attack Turkey should be made a bit more unattractive as it is in the moment with the land connection it provides into the middle east (ressources go up to 8/10) and the broad front to Russia. At least an attack at Turkey should rise US readiness (20-30%), so Axis would think about it – ATM it doesn´t affect USA. And the land connection should be removed similar to Gibraltar, so Axis ressources in the mid east will not go up to full strength and the invasion of Caucasus will not be so easy any more (ATM supply 10 for Axis).

[ April 27, 2006, 02:24 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[hellraiser]

100% correct.

Absolutely no chance for russians under a Caucasus strike assumption.

This game the Allies played rather passively - defence in Egypt was very light, emphasis put on saving troops for later use. UK had a very powerful ground force, USA quite the same. But Russia is simply unable to stop high tech german troops. Terif asked me why I did not put troops in the Caucasus - now he answered himself why

Condor did this Turkey attack as well and his supply in Caucasus went high enough to prevent any succesful defending of the mountains. Supply is the problem - if Axis don't hit Turkey , allies can hold Caucasus with a corps frontline due to low supply axis get (from str 5 cities); once Turkey is Axis, no more resistance is possible. And Turkey is very easy to get - at the beggining Russians cannot risk to operate troops in Turkey, they have too few of them (sometimes they even can't operate because Axis can cut off the access pretty easily).

Ok, I got Finland, Wallies were preparing a double hit in France - D-day in Brest and a hit on Vichy France to broaden the front so they can bring approx 20 heavy units to use as well as to threaten both Germany and Italy. But the russian collapse of Caucasus , thus cutting USSR production to less than 200/turn @IT3, made the game impossible to play in the East. Even with the imminent Siberian Transfer, axis making 650/turn more than offsets anything. Germans could have operated enough high tech troops in west and crush the Wallies while russians would have been more or less force to conduct only minor attacks.

Either the allies must conduct a very aggressive mid game to greatly delay the Axis (with the obvious risk of losing UK completely) or some bidding system / extra troops at least for russia / or higher IT for Russia must be in place.

Turkey don't influence the US? I thought general DOW by Axis should piss off all of major neutrals.

This has to be rethinked.

The Turkey/Caucasus approach for Axis is almost a sure win - it is in fact the cookie cutter of SC2.

Credits go to Condor (the first one who applied it against me - it went rather sloppy but it worked in the end ) and Terif (far more refined and fast turkish campaign).

[hellraiser]

For example a bonus mpp for russia (as in SC1) may be not a good ideea since russians instead of buying some troops can invest in techs and there ya have lvl 3 iw and at (fewer of them but tougher). Granting them extra troops or Terif's ideea of a default IT lvl 5 for russia might be better.

[Blashy]

I've had the Turkish offesive done to me.

I had level 3 IW, level 3 AT, production level 4 and IT level 4, as well as HT level 3 for the Russians when barbarossa started.

That hurt the Axis pretty bad in their invasion.

The problem is resources going up because of the land link, I never liked that feature.

And that USA is not affected by a big nation like Turkey being DoW.

I also favor that Turkey should have an HQ.

You also don't trigger Siberian transfer in the Caucausus, I would make that an immediate transfer and an immediate rebuild of the Urals.

[Terif]

Yep, Turkey is too easy to take without any possibility to prevent it for Allies (needs 3 turns maximum, can also be done in 2 turns) and gives way too much benefit for Axis in Version 1.0.

I guess until this is fixed in a patch, for my next games I will have to use a house rule to forbid an axis DoW at Turkey - since this is in deed a sure win for Axis.

[Blashy]

Why don't you just script an increase for USA activation jump and give Turkey an HQ?

It is alot better than being lazy with a house rule that does not permit certain possibilities .

You can even script for Urals and Siberian transfer.

You've got your noce in the scripts all the time, stop reading and start writing .

[jon_j_rambo]

@Blashy --- Because the competitive crowd wants a "Standard game" to play.

[Terif]

Sorry, but for competition games we need a balanced official standard campaign and not individually changed campaigns where everybody will use different scripts and OOBs - not practible in HvsH games. Perhaps against the AI you can customize the scenario since it will always share your individiual preferences, but not against human opponents .

[Terif]

Yep, Rambo also protests simultaneously - the editor is no real option in this case since we need a standard and not a bunch of individual solutions where then nobody will look through.

[Blashy]

Terif, CREATE a standard campaign.

Let me get this, at one point Hubert will stop patching SC2 (far futur we all hope).

Now the editor as you can attest is pretty limitless (almost).

So instead of working the campaign to create a balanced one if it still has some faults, you'll just throw in house rules?

There is no difference between "standard game" and what you suggest, because the house rules I've seen are changed in many games and the bidding system is ALWAYS changing. So the campaign is no longer "standard".

I'll never play with house rules, the editor has all you need to counter balance if you comit the time, house rules are IMHO the lazy way out and will simply limit gameplay.

Ex: DoW and landings first turn on majors, easily fixed by say putting an army on Rome at full entrenched level. The possibility (option) to do it remains, the chances of success are a high gamble, but it could be done and work just once.

I can understand with SC, but with SC2 and the versatile editor (not too mention scripts) no way.

Any league can eventually adopt a balanced campaign that no longer requires house rule, it does not mean that if the balancing was not all done by Hubert that it is no good. You join the league, you know the rules. I've seen that in more than my share of games.