AAR, Terif vs. Jollyguy; The Egyptian Gambit

[Jollyguy]

Okay, in my latest game with Terif I put on my thinking cap, and kept in mind what he’s said before, that you need to understand the scripts. I’m the Allies, the side I prefer and one I play in almost all our games. In all of our recent games (which he’s won all of) he has done the diplo Axis minors and then attack Vichy and Spanish strategy. So what I did was setup for an Egyptian gambit, by ignoring all diplomacy and having the French hold as long as possible. Sure enough, he started diplomacy with his minors and attacked Vichy. I made my game appear as standard as possible, by attacking Norway, but then kept that army heading to Egypt after he disembarked from Oslo. I also held Brest, and surrounded it with four naval units, and kept shuttling naval units around to make it appear I was using a standard defense, but in reality had moved all my carriers and many of my ships toward Egypt. I kept a corp in London and Manchester, in case he was spotting, but he had all Luftwaffe units farther east. I also of course kept all units in Egypt, and the first unit I purchased was an engineer, and I only spent money on researching infantry weapons.

I was counting on Terif not approaching Egypt until he was finished with Spain, a pattern he had followed in several earlier attack Spain games, so as not to raise US and Russian readiness until necessary, and he didn’t this time either. That gave me time to get my engineer down there and start fortifying right away west of Cairo, as he landed with a supply of five.

Terif took Brest, and I shifted my navy south, as if to bombard him around Gibralter. By now I had all land units except the two corps already in Egypt or on the way. He hit Spain and I even reinforced Madrid once to buy time, and shortly after Spain fell I finished building Montgomery and he was transported on swift ships to Egypt while he could still escape, and before the Kreigsmarine figured out what I was up to and blockaded the Isles. Then the two corps left, leaving the Home Islands completely unprotected. What I was gambling on of course is that with US and Russian readiness already so high that he wouldn’t invade England, as that would bump readiness even higher. I did not attack Tobruk, as that would have tipped my hand, and I was counting on my Engineer to build defenses. I goofed in one aspect, in that once Gibralter fell I forgot about the supply effect, and I couldn’t upgrade my lead corp in that pre-built fortification. I was able to get my armies in the two fortifications upgraded though, just in time. We fought in front of Alexandria for an extended period, and he eventually had three Luftwaffe and his Italian fighter hitting my HQ, which I had on a fortification. Defending I had my two fighters, and three carriers which I had upgraded to LR 1 and advanced fighters 1. An expensive use of carriers, but I had no choice. I would also hit Tobruk and it’s port at times with a ship or two and my bomber, to keep supply down, but he would sink the ships with his fighters. And I also got a few lucky Malta hits, so his supply was fairly low I believe, compared to my two English HQs and my Commonwealth HQ. All the while Barbarossa was looming.

Meanwhile, in Russia, Stalin developed a liking for paratroopers, after I saw them used effectively against me in Turkey in another game, which I’ll explain later. So, Barbarossa came, seeing Terif invade the Home Islands, and DOW Ireland; Portugal; Sweden (as I had abandoned Norway), Greece; Switzerland; Yugoslavia; and Russia all in one turn. He took my two forward empty cities, but left the Dnieper line alone. Actually, his Barbarossa came earlier than I expected, with Russian and US readiness in the 70s. What I forgot to factor in was the weather, as he had to have time to finish his early objectives. So I prepared my two paratroopers and amphib’ed an army and corp in the Black Sea. At the same time he backed up a bit in Egypt, and after contemplating a bit I’m sure, took London. Had he not done so I wouldn’t have been able to place anymore English units, but I had prepared, as I had my two armies and tank and all but one corp, well, two, if you count the one that got destroyed, plus the Commonwealth units to clog my backfield. So after London fell my capital transferred, and I’m up to really good supply now.

I had to sweat out the weather for my Russian paratroopers to land, while my amphibs moved toward Turkey. I got lucky with the weather, and was able to take out Turkey, landing near the European mainland and around Istanbul with a corp, so I could place a Russian cruiser there to block access to Asia. I hit Ankara with my Russian fighter and one British carrier and my British bomber, followed by a lead paratroop, then an amphib army, and finished with my second paratrooper. Turkey surrendered that turn, and I was able to take Istanbul with that corp the next turn. At the same time the Russians finished taking Iraq, and will take Iran in the next turn or two.

Meanwhile he has pulled back somewhat in Africa and we haven’t exchanged blows there in a couple turns, so I need to decide whether to go on the offensive or not, as he may be moving those fighters to Russia now that Greece fell. It’s a State secret what the US is up to, but they have been busy. I’m up to about 7 fortified hexes around Alexandria and the engineer keeps building, and btw, his engineer has been busy too, as I can see a couple fortifications around Tobruk.

1942 is right around the corner and Urals industry has kicked in but not the Siberians yet, so we’ll see what the next year of combat brings.

Bob

[TaoJah]

Great AAR !

It's always good to read about not-often used strategies, like the Egypt defence. He won't be able to slash his way through those fortifications, I think. But then again, neither will you be taking his.

If your entire Royal Navy is there, are you the boss on the sea there ? And did you take Syria / Iraq / Iran with the UK ?

[Terif]

The remaining UK ships are imprisoned/stationed around Egypt since they are cut off from the western Med and in the Atlantic the Axis fleet is waiting - only 2 ships a time could be sent there from the Red Sea and would be cannon fodder when arriving . At the moment Axis is boss on the sea except for the egyptian waters .

Turkey, Syria, Iran and Iraq belong to the allied hemisphere and are/will soon be conquered by Russia. Except for Egypt the rest of Europe - including Scandinavia, Finland and northwestern Russia - is Axis.

[ February 20, 2007, 04:41 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

[Terif]

Barbarossa time in August 1941 with german units landing in England:

The UK government conspiracy got revealed to public: Rebellion and civil war start to breed. The world trembles from the storm of protest, resulting in a political earthquake...

While the brave british citizens believed in the rightousness of the war, trusting their leaders and working hard for the cause, their government betrayed the country: removing the entire Home Guard from their positions and transporting everything not nailed down secretely to Egypt, trying to establish a new capital there – leaving England defenceless against any threat...

Getting aware of the nightmarish situation, monarchy recollects on its roots and so the Queen takes back leadership of the British Empire – in her inaugural speech she brands the traitors of the former government and all their followers:

„....a back-stabbing treachery like this is unacceptable and unworthy of any member of the british government. These subjects commited high treason and as from this moment on: are banished and considered enemies of the state ! Anyone acting as an accessory or hiding them will also be prosecuted and die the same painful death when they are caught...they might feel save behind their fortress walls in Egypt, but they won´t be ! History is written on the sands of Egypt and these traitors are about to face the consequences of the whirlwind they have caused...may the wind strip the flesh of their bones...“

As consequence the traitors in Egypt get isolated and all connections cut off.

Additionally the Queen negotiates a peace treaty with a german representative: similar to VichyFrance she hands over control of the British Isle and its military installations to Axis. Until the war is officially over, only the capital London and surrounding will remain under her direct control.

All british colonies and allies follow the example, branding the war criminals in Egypt and freeze every support. And so they are now facing all alone the full power of the Axis...soon to be crushed into dust and buried in oblivion....

But when the crazy german Führer got briefed of the diplomatic success in England, he held a speech: „...We don´t want an easy victory and win without a real battle, let´s fight it to the end...“ and so London got occupied. The former traitors in Egypt were reinstated and deliveries of war materials from UK territories finally are flowing now to the exile government in Alexandria.

In game terms:

The clear counter against the Egypt gambit with leaving the British Isle undefended is in game terms:

Axis will simply occupy the Isle but without allowing the capital to be moved to Egypt. Consequence is that UK in Egypt has effectively no income left as the convois will be shut down with Manchester port in Axis hands and the remaining units in Egypt will be eliminated sooner or later since they get nearly no new recruits or material any more and can´t be reinforced - when Alexandria falls UK lastly will completely surrender = game over.

In other words: UK can´t leave the Isle empty or it will loose all income and lastly the war for sure. BTW: Just a few corps can´t prevent this reaction, they can easily be killed by a german task force. UK either has to leave a strong ground presence, or Royal Navy has to protect its home country so such a thing won´t happen.

Here in this game my Axis only took London so the game could continue since it promises to be an interesting good and long battle in an unusual setting .

Closing word:

Allies have an advantage of around 200mpps/turn now, but Axis only have to fight a one front war in the east and can concentrate all forces there. UK already lost 4 battleships as well as 3 cruisers and suffered several hits to the rest of its fleet including heavily damaged carriers. All 4 french fleets decided to continue fighting as free french, but nevertheless Axis ships are ruling the Atlantic and all of the Med west of Greece now. The US convois got shut down, every merchant ship leaving a US port gets sunk by sub wolfpacks waiting for them in a screening belt around North America . USA is at least for now not able to send troops accross the Atlantic and the western coast of Europe remains a harbour of safety – only UK troops in Egypt so far.

We are now in November/December 1941 - Axis main thrust in Russia is towards Moskov at the moment aiming to unite with the forces coming in from Finland. All of Europe is in Axis hands, all except for a tiny little village in Egypt .

Between Greece and Tobruk Axis installed a minefield, guarded by 5 airfleets so no enemy ship can pass through unharmed....Meantime further south, both sides built thousands of miles of extensive fortification and bunker lines in the desert between Cairo and Tobruk...soon every square inch of the desert will be vanished under concrete...future generations will surely be astonished when visiting these incredible architectural structures...already nowadays considered the 8th Worldwunder .

[jon_j_rambo]

In a word: Yodl.

[Blashy]

One option if the Axis keeps london allied so they do not transfer to egypt is to buy 4-5 units and have them all appear on the same turn on London and around it.

If the Axis player wishes to stop that he would need to use up alot of units to cover every tile around london.

[Terif]

The problem of UK with London still allied is they don´t get mpps (only 26/turn to be exact..) - i.e. can´t buy the 4-5 units

Even if they would have done it before beeing cut off from convois, Axis only needs to send a few cleaners via Edinburgh or Manchester to make short process of them - without reinforcements or even HQ support they are only cannon fodder .

But in the end it is good that this all-in Egypt move is not a really good idea in game terms and there exists this tried and tested counter.

When the Egypt gambit came up in the forum, first comment was "gamey" (or let´s say unhistorical.. ) - but by leaving London to Allies - which falls in the same category - you can return the favour...

If the Egypt gambit would work, it would put the game upside down and easily become the standard allied defence - which is fortunately not the case .

[jon_j_rambo]

@T-Blashy --- Dude, Yoda's professional gaming career is unblemished. He's got some serious strategies! His execution of them is even better.

[Jollyguy]

Oh, it's gamey, no doubt.

This strategy will be one time with Terif, I can assure you. In the other game we have going, started after this one, he showed up at Alexandria in force soon after France fell, so there’s no way I could pull it off again...against him. And ever the innovator, in that other game he didn’t attack Vichy or Spain and diplo’ed the heck out of Iraq, so I’m not sure what his strategy is yet but will soon find out, and I'll probably received a blackeye too...but it will be a good learning experience.

The Egyptian Gambit is an interesting variation though, one I also thought gamey at first, but hey, this is a game. One thing Terif did which he seldom does is fall into a pattern of diplo'ing his Axis minors and attacking Spain, which is the only thing that allowed me to pull it off. I don’t plan on falling into a pattern with my play in the future. Like in poker, it’s good to bluff and get caught on occasion, to keep your opponents guessing. Some games I'll do conventionally, but others I'll try new things just to spice things up.

Bob

[Iron Ranger]

nice read

[n0kn0k]

Giving up England is a feature of the game, nothing fishy about that. That's why capital movement was put in

However taking the island and leaving a capital open as was described is really really gamey imho. I wonder if there's a solution on the development side to counter such things. Maybe if the convoy mechanics change

[arado234]

Terif it looks to me as if you know everything.When we have the sc2 tournament im guessing the winner will play you.If it happens to be me(which i doubt)i will look foward to getting killed by you and learning some things as jollyguy has.WOW

[Desert Dave]

Originally posted by n0kn0k:

Giving up England is a feature of the game, nothing fishy about that. That's why capital movement was put in

However taking the island and leaving a capital open as was described is really really gamey imho. I wonder if there's a solution on the development side to counter such things. Maybe if the convoy mechanics change

Solution could be fairly simple,

OK, OK, I'll knock!

Upon - the Green Door! :cool:

[... since it is that YOU know

MORE about what's goin' on

'round SC Town than I do, LOLOL! ]

________________________

There's an old piano

And they play it hot behind the green door

Don't know what they're doin'

But they laugh a lot behind the green door

Wish they'd let me in

So I could find out what's behind the green door

(Knocked once, tried to tell them I'd been there)

(Door slammed, hospitality's thin there)

(Wonder just what's goin' on in there)

Saw an eyeball peepin'

Through a smoky cloud behind the green door

When I said "Joe sent me"

Someone laughed out loud behind the green door

All I want to do is join the happy crowd behind the green door

-- Music: Bob Davie

--Lyrics: Marvin Moore

______________________________

And so, hip Bo trip, onward we git:

**There are AI Script "mechanics"

That provide for "tactical advantage/threat."

You know, IF so & so is facing

This dis-advantage,

Then some events don't happen,

Like that there.

SO... use something similar, IE,

IF a Nation, Major or Minor or

Militia Middling,

Finds itself in the throes of overwhelming

Bad Cat catastrophe,

Has odds of, let's say - 4 to ZERO against,

(... assuming some sort of "gamey"

exploit, as with above account

of shenanigans down in them nomad sands

of old Egypt)

THEN... the non-god

Blessed Nation would... capitulate,

And the Capital/Country

Would automatically

Revert to the conqueror,

And all that would usually ensue,

Duly ensues, IE,

Plunder and discord and removal of units.

Now,

Good thing about this here,

T'would ALSO serve to solve

Another much-debated issue,

A one that I too believe should/could

Be included in this ever-improving game.

Italy.

Once Fort Capuzzo falls in 1940, woooops!

I mean,

Once the number of Allied forces

In Sicily and, pushing on

Up from the bottom of the boot

Reaches a certain degree of magnitude,

A certain "tacital advantage,"

Which may be as low as 2 to 1

EVEN if we give the benefit of the doubt

THEN Italy capitulates.

It's a simple matter of including

An extra parameter or two

In the appropriate AI scripting.

How hard that would be?

And IF Hubert would even wish to do it,

Remains to be seen,

As with all else WRT game development.

BTW... most beneficial

The never-ending Myth das ist Terif,

And too, many other Et-als,

As with the @-Man, rambo jr,

Do indeed play out these helter-skelter,

Ram-around, ring-a ding a' Kong-along

Kind of games,

So antidotes might be implemented.

We'll see what we will see,

As somebody once said.

Who? What multitude?

LOL, as if... THAT remotely matters.

[ February 21, 2007, 04:30 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[Colin I]

Dave,

Absolutely - Italy should have some chance of surrender as soon as Allies land on the mainland - be it by capturing any city or whatever metric you choose. Lots of Italian Royalists were only to glad to see the back of Mussolini.

To counterbalance a serious (but realistic) Axis disadvantage perhaps increase Italian forces (significant if used well - as it was with Rommel, but fragile) AND give Germany a few more advantages (I favour return to three HQ; German command and control was a great asset).

I was actually wondering if diplomacy system could be used here. After a country enters war you normally stop using the system for that country. Perhaps it changes to a national morale track that shifts with victory, defeat and (perhaps) even diplomacy of another kind when very shaky. After all, in the last days of the war even the Germans were being (unofficially) approached about surrender. This makes it more interesting for minors, less predictable than the loss of your capital though obviously this would have a major effect. I'm not saying you can Diplo a country into surender UNLESS its in big trouble in other ways.

[Desert Dave]

Originally posted by Colin I:

Dave,

Absolutely - Italy should have some chance of surrender as soon as Allies land on the mainland - be it by capturing any city or whatever metric you choose. Lots of Italian Royalists were only to glad to see the back of Mussolini.

To counterbalance a serious (but realistic) Axis disadvantage perhaps increase Italian forces (significant if used well - as it was with Rommel, but fragile) AND give Germany a few more advantages (I favour return to three HQ; German command and control was a great asset).

I was actually wondering if diplomacy system could be used here. After a country enters war you normally stop using the system for that country. Perhaps it changes to a national morale track that shifts with victory, defeat and (perhaps) even diplomacy of another kind when very shaky. After all, in the last days of the war even the Germans were being (unofficially) approached about surrender. This makes it more interesting for minors, less predictable than the loss of your capital though obviously this would have a major effect. I'm not saying you can Diplo a country into surender UNLESS its in big trouble in other ways.

Yet again!

But another!

Superb suggestion, Colin I... ! :cool:

LOTS of potential

In them there Diplo AND Event

And maybe even NEW!

Scripts - not now known!

Not to mention,

As you, apparently, very, well appreciate,

There... ARE NO LIMITS

To what might, finally,

Become... THE most amazing!

Game

EVER created.

WW-2 GS-wise & turn-based, I mean.

**For Solo players,

Same as for 'em head-hunters too! :cool:

[Colin I]

Thannk you Dave.

Was actually thinking of one related things. One is that Diplomacy chits have some value on surrender of target country when coupled to National Morale. For example, with fall of France.

Default is Vichy France and some chance of defection of Units to UK. You can imagine Fall of France with 5 Axis chips in to France which has low National Morale (I know its not allowed now, but bear with me) - possible result is all of France is Axis with small chance of Units defecting to Axis. Or if UK has large diplomatic advantage all France becomes Vichy and defection chance to UK is larger.

This is kind of like some of the alternative Scripts suggested but with a one-off resolution that players can influence.

Other possibles are Partisans. Germany didn't stomp on some countries too hard after conquest because they hoped to influence the population (eg NL in the early days). Others got the jackboot harder. This is currently decided for us (Yugoslavia and Russia are big trouble, UK and Norway difficult, Low countries passive). This could be another check-diplo-on surrender (or before for Russia) issue. So, we can simulate a wise German policy to Ukranians (Edwin's suggestion I think) by German Diplomacy chits into Russia resulting in some pre- or post surrender benefits such as no Partisans in Ukranian locations (not actually sure there are now, but you get the idea).

[hellraiser]

Not occupying the capital in this case is gamey for sure - I foresaw this Axis' tactic when I first read jolly's first post in this thread.

The temptation is simply too high for Axis to ignore - it practically knocks out UK while she is at the peak of her power with all those assets massed in Africa. Absolutely unrealistic, don't tell me the germans would have left a single inch unoccupied in the event of a succesful Sealion...

Perhaps Hubert should look into this and implement the possibility to move manually the capital city (with some mpp costs associated perhaps).

It is a matter of choice - if allies want Africa and the mid east, they will probably have to concede the isle - it is not bad for Germany as she is not directly threatened anymore, it is not necessarily good or bad for the Wallies - they bump their supply in that area but have a harder time to invade places with relevance for the war course.

[jon_j_rambo]

In a word: Yodl

[SeaMonkey]

As I have stated many times before, there should be some inherent value associated with any homelands' tiles.

IRL the defensive forces try to take advantage of terrain and limit the amount of the country that is occupied by enemy forces.

Sure, there are times when some ground is to be relinquished for strategic/tactical reasons, but for the most part, space is always yielded grugdingly.

Other than an inherent MPP value to the majority of an homeland's tiles, there could be a random percentage of surrender based upon a formula that accounts for the remaining friendly tiles or the enemy occupied ones or both.

In this way, there would be some randomness to capitulation, but still with enough knowledge to try an avoid. Now homeland defences would have an incentive to resist giving up land needlessly and represent a more realistic scenario to the game.

[n0kn0k]

How would you apply such a feature to the Sovjets? Only 1/3 their land is represented in the game. And capitulation is really a different issue in a democracy or dictatorship

[SeaMonkey]

Simple, each equation would represent the idiosyncracies of that nation's characteristics during the WW2 era.

Obviously for the USSR, having more land, the tiles would not trigger the randomized surrender until they reached a certain number. Different Cities/resources would have more value, than say a swamp tile.

When the accumulation of tiles reaches a certain threshold the script would be activated, a low percent chance at first. As more tiles are conceded to the enemy the % chance the surrender would occur will increase.

Think of it in terms of the way Research levels are acquired, except the chits you buy are the tiles you possess or the enemy controls.

Now the equation, level of script activation and % randomness to occur, would be different for the UK, France, USA, etc.

You could even pursue this further and have it dependent on certain diplomacy actions adding another variable to the equation.

Complication generates an unknown factor to the conducting of the conflict in a manner similar to the way it was. What we want to avoid is that complication in the user interface and the actions required of the players, other than contemplation.

[arado234]

I know this is a game but do you really think the british would just abandon their country?Iknow its also fun to try new things but leaving england to germany without a fight seems kind of gamey.If the british isles fell where would britain get her men and material from.Her industry would be gone.England would probably carry on the fight but from canada not africa.Remember the brits and french werent to popular in the middle east.Colonialism and all that sort of stuff.I think SeaMonkey is right,if you just abandon your homeland there should be some punishment for it other than whats in the game now.If germany happens to conquuer all of russia but the allies take berlin and munich germany is gone.How much sense does that make if germany has her main army intact and could probably wipe the allies out.Plus germany would have access to all the russian industry & I know it would have to be rebuilt.

[Guest Mike]

If the Brits abandoning England is a reasonable move then the Germans not occupying London can hardly be complained abut!!

[hellraiser]

You have a point here, S.O., indeed.

But this 'feature' is like many others in SC2: you dont get Smolensk too soon because it triggers the urals industry (in fact you surround it, leaving it unoccupied), you don't occupy Alexandria so readiness stay a few more turn down, etc - meaning you really need to read the scripts to have a chance. Back then, Smolensk was an important target - germans could care less about triggering I don't know what scripts - , we can all be sure that Rommel would have marched into Alexandria had he broken britsh resistance in Africa, without fearing a +10% increase in US/USSR readiness, etc.

OTOH, I can understand that from the balancing point of view, these scripts are necessary but it cannot wash away the 'artificial' feeling I get about these things.

Some will say about the current AAR: Terif did well, in a way he punished Jolly for abandoning England, which is very unrealistic. - definitely they'll have a point.

some others will say - OMGWTF, Yoda was abussive with this move, total unrealistic, etc - they will have their point as well.

Unfortunately, everybody is right, which kinda sucks

[Colin I]

I'm with Hellraiser - lets introroduce slightly more complex and random triggers to avoid this.

Another one (my fault I admit) was in a game when Spain was nearly Axis but completely blocked by Allied diplomacy. I landed a suicide unit in UK which held long enough to trigger Spanish entry.

Worse, US fleet seems to be triggered from Pacific even if US attacks Spain.

The scripting is really great but needs more subtlety.