pzgndr Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 From Agent Smith several days ago: Pzgndr, Perhaps you did'nt see my question at Wargamer forum, but it would appear that you are well placed to give an unbiased appraisal of the pros and cons of some of the games just out or about to come out. I'm starting to get my head around AGW, at the moment, and I must say it feels like the board games of old. Perhaps I'm a bit nostalgic, in that I am prepared to accept some initial eccentricities for what should turn out to be a pretty good game. Non-Disclosure agreements aside, is there anything you can comment on from what you have seen. And that given that all regular contributors to this forum will be buying SC2 anyway, what would you be suggesting while we wait... Considering the increasing levels of tension on the forum these days, perhaps a pleasant little detour would be worthwhile. Firstly, some personal background to put things in perspective. Some may know some of this, while others may not. I started wargaming over 30 years ago. First game purchase was Tactics II for $5 and then Third Reich for $10. Since then, I've acquired and played dozens and dozens of other games of various scales and eras. Diversity is good. Gaming just went hand in hand with my military history bookclub reading through high school. I went beyond wargame hobby enthusiast to being a real warrior. West Point grad, airborne/ranger infantry officer, nuclear weapons officer. I commanded a mech company in 1AD in Germany (hence, pzgndr is earned), got a masters in nuclear engineering, and finished my Army career managing some software development contracts for Defense Nuclear Agency. Since getting out in 1994, I've been gainfully employed in the nuclear industry. But my hobby interest throughout has continued to be wargaming, because I enjoy it. Somehow I managed to get invited several years ago to be a playtester for Hubert's SC1 and Ron Dockal's Russo-German War, after release for both, so I helped with the later patches. This led to helping with development and playtesting of the sequels, SC2 and Anglo-German War. These two game systems are fundamentally different as far as scale and scope and game mechanics go, but both are labors of love by one-man development teams and I've been honored to be associated with both of them. So, what about an "unbiased" appraisal of things? I've got an obvious interest in both WWII grand strategy games as well as operational games. Besides SC1/SC2 and RGW/AGW, I've got GGWAW and HOI2 on my harddrive and poke around with them occassionally. I've purchased both NeppaGames ETO and UGG's Blitzkrieg General boardgames in the past couple of years. So I've also got an interest in both the ETO and global aspects of WWII. Needless to say, I am looking forward to seeing MWiF, Online AWAW, TOAW-MGE (with an updated Europe Aflame scenario), and CWIE2. If you don't know what some of those abbreviations are, then you haven't been paying attention to the market. Now, having been around once or twice over the past three decades of wargaming, I've seen quite a bit. IgoUgo games vs simultaneous orders. Games with distinct phases vs more open-ended turns. Turns vs real-time or pausable-time or whatever. Simple vs complex. Hexes vs squares vs provinces/regions. You name it. If every game I ever played was just like the one before then I would have quit this hobby long long ago. Trying new stuff always brings a fresh perspective, and sometimes for the better. Having wandered about for a while, I'll return to the original question. What to suggest? Well, Schwerpunkt's AGW... MWiF probably won't be out till late summer at the earliest, and that there is a game for serious grognards looking for a more accurate simulation of WWII than SC2 is likely to provide. CWIE2 is due out this summer, but that won't have an AI at all. Online AWAW has no announced target date, but maybe 2007 sometime? TOAW-MGE might get released this spring, but again there's no announced date yet. Other than GGWAW and HOI2, there's not much else out there similar to SC except People's Tactics. Vic has PT2 in development and is looking for playtesters, so if you're interested in helping to make something happen then there's an opportunity. I'll close with a few comments about SC2. Guys, this is a fun game. And it's more than a game - it is a game development kit because the campaign editor allows you to customize just about everything. Remember my background, and how I've been playing all these different games for so long? And DesertDave's been playing longer than me! Well, we've been none too shy about suggesting this and that to Hubert along the way, as everyone here on the forum has also, and Hubert has been great at implementing many fine ideas. I know a few folks are still concerned about a particular design feature or two, but overall this sequel remains as fun and as simple as the original. Keep an open mind and be prepared to be impressed, OK? Soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John C Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Nice report. Thanks. My only comment would be that for a WWII game, I prefer SC1 or even COS to GGWAW or HOI2. Personally, I found WAW to be a major disappointment. The tech tree in particular just ruined that game by incenting behaviors that were downright silly. I've actually turned to Crown of Glory as I wait for SC2 and while it has its flaws as well, I have found it to be an enjoyable game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don't Shoot Me Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Agreed. That's a great post pzgndr. Thanks for the insight and for the background about yourself. It's good to see that I'm not the only 30 year wargamer that still finds this stuff fascinating. Also thanks for your service to the country and for helping Hubert out. I have a lot of confidence from reading your many posts that your ideas and feedback are helping to make this a solid sequel. I've enjoyed SC1 immensely and am looking forward to seeing a fully play balanced and tested SC2. Take care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 What is this crap? This sounds like a politcally correct circle jerk in the finest fashion. Using buzz words like "Diversity" to stroke your ego with. Give me a break. Stealing the latest slogans of this wicked world to glorify oneself. Then you have the nerve to wave the West Point flag...BUT you have a BUNTA NAME! "Whaz with zat?" --- from the movie classic, Menance To Society. So what is this speech all about? You? Dude, if you're going to post your resume, both now & a child...why not speak the truth? How about you getting headcracked in SC-1? What a joke, what happenned to this website? Where the gamers? Where are the players? Where are the people who actually are people, not other robot of this world. Dude, come to my playground, I'll show you how a public school Legend takes care of business. Seriously, I haven't been this disgusted by just reading a thread. Is this a website skirts? I'd love to bust some real smack, but somebody will cry. -Legend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuniworth Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 locking this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapaho Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 "Considering the increasing levels of tension on the forum these days" What tension I enjoyed the post for what its worth pzgndr, I also served in a Nuclear weapons unit and I always find it interesting the backgrounds of other people who are otherwise anonymous. I have only been playing strategy games for about 28 years though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzgndr Posted February 10, 2006 Author Share Posted February 10, 2006 Interesting. I guess it's just impossible to be pleasant with some folks and hold a rational conversation, but I'll continue to try. Rambo, you will get your game and an opportunity to head smack all the players willing to play with you. Enjoy yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Dave Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Then you have the nerve to wave the West Point flag. jjr, I already mentioned this once, but Stay off the Vets, big guy. Bill volunteered. I volunteered. One or 2 others on this board Also volunteered, Then it was time to do our part. How about you? Big strapping Idaho lad, Always waving furious the Flag, Playing warrior (... easy for some to do such things, running the smart-mouth and acting awful brave... when they are... across-great-distances, LOL! ) Playing at patriot. I understand the US Armed Forces Are short of recruiting goals. Again. For that debacle in Iraq. How about hitching up The courage quotient, and sauntering on over To yer local recruitment center, And, Doing YOUR part? They've raised the age limit, and They're even taking criminals Fresh out of prison. They'd probably take... even you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by jon_j_rambo: Dude, come to my playground, I'll show you how a public school Legend takes care of business.Dammit, spit up my coffee… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ike99 Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 I've always found this "I was a soldier." statement used as a thing to garner respect or legitamacy for oneselves or views to be a British and American cultural thing. In my country to say "I was a soldier" is not something one wants to say. Actually people who were or are soldiers try to not to bring it up. I suppose this is because 20 years ago if you spoke against the great leaders you ended up at the Escuela de Mecanica or some other place for electric shock therapy or never to be seen again and the soldier is the one who took you there. I know in many other countries it is also almost a shame to say I was a soldier. I know after Vietnam there was an effect like this also in the United States. I wonder if the Mid East campaign being waged today turns out to be a failure if we will see this change once again in the US public phyche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Perhaps if you had won the Falklands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ike99 Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Perhaps if you had won the "Malvinas"? Excuse my liberty for the correction. But seriously, before that war there was still these things happening. Had been for years. I'm just saying if the mid east campaign is a failure will the images most remembered be the Flag on the statue video or the Prison scandal photographs. I wonder if in the North American society will the "I was a soldier" statement be used as often and for the same reasons as it is used today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santabear Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 The profession of arms can be a noble calling. It can also lead to some of the worst degradation of which men are capable. Hopefully, we will always be able to attract people of good character to practice it. The people who serve define what it is. To me, "I was a soldier" doesn't mean, "I'm better than you," it means "I was willing to put it all on the line." And that kind of committment deserves respect. So, Ike, I think we (North Americans) will always continue to respect and value our soldiers--and to always try to find a better way to do things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 "Pnzgdr got smacked, that is a shame. But he got smacked because he had no code, no honor, and Rambo was watching" --- Lt. Kendrick "2nd Infantry? They were in Da-Nang. Col. Troutman, your the only one I trust" --- Rambo Remember clowns, playing the part of wearing the funny face (D.Fargo), results in..."don't make me come back in here again, or heads are going to roll" --- Dick, from Breakfast Club. Far as serving in 'Nam,"Lets do the whole village" --- Bunny. "Yeeee-Haaaw, just like Vietnam" ---- Fed Agent in Diehard. "I was in 2nd grade, D-head" --- other Fed Agent. "Fighting for those who aren't your family?" --- The Godfather. The weapons of my warfare are not carnal, but spiritual to the pulling down of strongholds. I carry the sword & armor. You don't see any problems in Idaho do you? I'm in the militia, but "You don't need a badge on your sleeve to have honor" --- Harold. "You guys have no idea how to defend a nation" --- Jessup. Serve Uncle Sam, I say serve the Master. That's all I have to say, you're dismissed, The Reverend Jon J. Rambo >>> OUT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J P Wagner Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Originally posted by Lars: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jon_j_rambo: Dude, come to my playground, I'll show you how a public school Legend takes care of business.Dammit, spit up my coffee… </font> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaMonkey Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Well Bill as one American to another, at the risk of a profound understatement, thanks for your service. Although I have never served "officially", I have the greatest admiration for our armed forces and the citizens of our country that fill their ranks. It is my opinion that there is no greater deed that any human can do for his fellow man than be willing to sacrifice his/her life for the freedom of another, a complete stranger in most instances. Although historically the US armed services may have had some indiscretions, they are rare events in the proper perspective of man's misdeeds. Usually we observe very admiral actions from most of our countrymen and I salute them for their sacrifices, for without them, the world would surely be an uglier place, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzgndr Posted February 10, 2006 Author Share Posted February 10, 2006 SeaMonkey, thanks, but really I shared my background of wargaming, military history and military service just to put my opinions in perspective. The original issue was about wargaming, and what's out there in the market today or on the horizon. How this turned into some sort of flag-waving psychobabble and juvenile personal insults is for others to answer for. Frankly, I don't care. This is not about me. This is an interesting hobby and there are a lot of neat games available to play - for fun. It's nice that we do have games like SC1/2, HOI1/2 and GGWAW available, and more on the way. A couple of years ago there was nothing on the market except the oldies like 3R PC, COS, HighCommand and a couple of others. We should all be in a pretty good mood about things and optimistic about the future of gaming, yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincere Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Can anybody tell what MWiF is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaMonkey Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Matrix version of World in Flames. Bill, you have mentioned a lot of great games, but have left out one that I believe is cutting edge for the future of wargames. That is the Panther Games' Airborne Assault series, specifically the present release HttR and the soon to be released CotA. These games will give you a whole new perspective about what can be accomplished in appealing(eye) and versatile game mechanics. And guess what, there are no hexes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincere Posted February 10, 2006 Share Posted February 10, 2006 Thanks SeaMonkey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ike99 Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Well now...ya know as I read all the ideas expressed above such as... Honor, Nobility, putting it all on the line for the freedom of others, self sacrifice and such... I thought I heard a drum beating faintly and a violin playing softly in E-minor, I admit I had to wipe away a tear. After wiping the tear from my eye I heard another sound, the sound of screaching breaks and then a collision with broken glass and twisted metal. It was reality breaking through this idealistic cloud of... Honor, Nobility, putting it all on the line for the freedom of others, self sacrifice and such... I really wish you guys were right and I mean that. As individuals this is probably true in most cases based upon the information the individual has been given. I've never heard any soldier say "Well, were going to war to steal the resources and enforce our political system on the population of this other country." While nobility and the other ideas mentioned above may be the driving factor of the soldier for better or worse it is certainly not the driving factor of the collective. After seeing the World get together after Iraq invaded Kuwait in 91' to stop an aggressor as a collective, UN force I thought maybe the world had turned a corner here. This was certainly honorable but after the pullout in Solmalia, the outright genocide in Rawanda as all of us watched along with others atrocities, I think it was mere coincidence. I ask you this.... Where was the "nobility" as bodies floated down the rivers in Rwanda? Where was "putting it on the line" when a million people were slaughtered in Cambodia? Where was the "fight for the freedom of others" as people disappeared in my own country and the government controlled everything from the press on down? Where was the romantic ideas and chest poundings as racial & religious based extermination flourished in Serbia? I for one never saw them. Someone smarter than me a long time ago said..."Warfare is the violent exchange of resources and power, nothing more. The soldier is simply the currency used to complete the transaction." I subscribe to this idea and dismiss the other stuff as rubbish. Although it is nice to hear so many people still believe in the romantic notions. It tells me there might be a slimmer of hope for the countries to get together and give "Freedom & Justice" to everyone and not just give it lip service to trump up their populations for a war. "Babies in incubators!" Oh I LOVE that one. Classic. You older guys can fill the younger ones in as to what I'm talking about here. Hope I didn't burst anyone's sanitized bubble or ruin their Kodak moment picture. But that's the way it really works. My country, your country, their country. Nevertheless, it's food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_j_rambo Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 "Whattaya lookin' at? You're all a bunch of clones. You know why? 'Cause you don't have the guts to be what you wanna be. You need people like me. You need people like me so you can point yourfingers, and say "that's the bad guy." So, what dat make you? Good? You're not good; you just know how to hide. Howda lie. Me, I don't have that problem. Me, I always tell the truth--even when I lie. So say goodnight to the bad guy. Come on; the last time you gonna see a bad guy like this, let me tell ya. Come on, make way for the bad guy. There's a bad guy comin' through; you better get outta his way!" -Legend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuniworth Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Nothing wrong with public schools Rambo. And nothing wrong with beeing poor either. Actually nothing wrong with beeing a waitress or shoe salesman or whatever of them low paid jobs there are out there. We live in a market economy where some people will have to do those jobs no matter what and it's only stupid to think or present yourself as better than people because you got a better paid job. I couldnt care a rats ass if one of you were the preseident of the united states, thats not a merit in talks of strategic command. So "take this job and shove it" - Johnny Cash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuniworth Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Originally posted by jon_j_rambo: "Whattaya lookin' at? You're all a bunch of clones. You know why? 'Cause you don't have the guts to be what you wanna be. You need people like me. You need people like me so you can point yourfingers, and say "that's the bad guy." So, what dat make you? Good? You're not good; you just know how to hide. Howda lie. Me, I don't have that problem. Me, I always tell the truth--even when I lie. So say goodnight to the bad guy. Come on; the last time you gonna see a bad guy like this, let me tell ya. Come on, make way for the bad guy. There's a bad guy comin' through; you better get outta his way!" -Legend Thats just plain nonsense. This bad guy stuff is only in your head. I think your reaction to Bill's first post was for real and don't turn it into a joke. Tell me is it a feeling that you are judged by your diplomas rather than the person you are? THat you are judged by that you went to public school instead of what you can do? It's called class-hate baby. No don't turn it into some socialist rant Rambo, cause Im not even gonna involve that. It is simply got to do with not beeing judge by your character and the emotions it brings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Smith Posted February 11, 2006 Share Posted February 11, 2006 Thanks for the comment Bill. @JJR- man you are getting really tiresome, now go take your medicine and have a good lie down. There's a good boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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