Sealion

[Guest Mike]

I got a book a few months ago on Sealion - "Invasion! Operation Sealion 1940", Martin Marx Evans, Pearson Longman 2004. It's fairly expensive - NZ$60 for large A5-ish, 260-odd pages, but the guy does a much better analysis of Sealion than I did in my uni paper!

anyway - it gives a bit of a summary of eth naval forces that were allocated by each side:

Kriegsmarine.

the naval protection for the invasion would be provided by 1 heavy cruiser (Admiral hipper), 3 light cruisers (Nurnberg, Koln, Emden) and 7 destroyers.

Scharnhorst and Genesenau were unfit for service due to damage, Bismark had not yet been fitted out and and Prince Eugen had not yet finished trials - crews of both ships required further training. Admiral Scheer was was undergoing reconstruction, and Lutzow and Leipzig were both out of action being repaired.

Decoy

A decoy invasion was planned from Norway, to turn back 2 days before the actual invasion. This was to consist of 10 transports, fully loaded with troops (to ensure it was taken seriously) and protected by the cruisers and 4 torpedo boats that had taken part in hte Norwegian campaign, and 9 WW1 era torpedo boats normally used for training.

There were 21 relatively modern destroyers and Torpedo boats which were also to be used in the English Channel.

U-boats

7 large boats (Type IX), 12 medium (VII) and 20 small (II) U-boats would be available - the small boats including 13 training boats. 10 of the total were expected to be unable to steam due to lack of crew or need for repairs.

they were allocated positions from north of the Orkeneys to the south entrance to the channel off Brest/Cherbourg.

the RN:

Western approaches had 1 cruiser and 23 destroyers

another 5 destroyers were at each of Portsmouth and Dover.

Nore command had 3 cruisers and 7 destroyers at Humber, 9 destroyers at Harwich and a Cruiser and 3 destroyers at Sheerness on the south bank of hte Thames

On the Tyne was a cruiser and 12 destroyers.

The rest of the Home Fleet was 5 battleships, 3 cruisers andf 9 destroyers at Scapa, 2 cruisers at Rosyth, and hte a/c carrier Argus at Iceland.

Of this a total of 4 destroyer flotilla's with cruiser support were designated as the opposition to the Invasion fleet.

The Admiralty also expected to have 100 smaller ships available, with 300 on patrol at any one time.

Cusiously no mention is made of RN submarines.

[Panzerkeil]

Interesting stats. Thanks for the info. Should provide for some interesting debates as to Sea Lion in SC2. Would you be able to provide some info as to the actual landing craft for the "real" invasion?

It is easy to see why, in consideration of the disparity between the two sides why Raeder wanted total air superiority as a condition for Sea Lion

[Guest Mike]

Yes there's a fair bit of info on the shipping to be used, but it'll take a while to summarise & I'm supposed to be back at work now....so later

Just noticed that I missed a "0" in the number of small ships above - was supposed to be 1000 small vessels the RN had, with 300 on patrol at any one time.

[Panzerkeil]

What a coincidence. As I am typing this, "Battle of Britain" is playing on History. Here's a Brit diplomat talking to a German diplomat at the British embassy in Switzerland:

"We're not easily frightened. Also, we know how hard it is for an army to cross the Channel. The last little corporal who tried came a cropper! So don't threaten or dictate to us until you are marching up Whitehall. And even then we won't listen!"

[hellraiser]

Selion would have been a risky endeavour any way you put it. Germany did not really need to occupy England to force UK out of the war

Strategic bombers should have been the key but Germany built the air force with only tactical needs in mind - close air support, vital for the blitzkrieg doctrine. The lack of a good and reliable SB and in large numbers made it eventually impossible for Germany to keep the allied 'MPP' in check

The german U boats managed to achieve good results in the 'counter-blockade' initiated against the UK - Churchill said at some point that the english treasury was close to bankruptcy and shipping was a dangerous activity (without US help, they would have been forced probably to negotiate with Germany). With a sizeable SB force, given the task to hit the vital english industrial centers, ports, airports, etc and being able to fly over the whole english territory, the UK would have been forced to say 'give peace a chance'

The same lack of a potent SB force made it almost impossible for the germans to reach parts of the USSR where the soviets produced at leisure (eventually USSR alone outproduced the germans in every aspect).

Germany was never prepared for an attrition war - they had a superb army built only for short wars - great results when the supply was 10

[Desert Dave]

... the UK would have been forced to say 'give peace a chance'

Couldn't have happened,

HR, until

October 9, 1940, in any event.

Though, as a mere Babe, and

Then - the music precocious Liverpool tot,

Lennon crying his little lungs out

To... "give peace a chance,"

Likely would have fallen on

Deaf & dumb and, hirsute & pointed

National Socialist ears.

France would be already succumbed

To some thundrous crack! cadence

'Em gleaming knee-high jack-boots,

But at least some others

Might have been spared

The usual "Euro internecine,"

No matter - not so awful innocent

Their expansive, chauvinist

Schemes & dreams?

Well,

All I am saying, is

Far better to hear a music-man like Lennon

Strumming 'is miniature guitar - for Peace,

Than to hear so many!

Modern Cro-Mag cretins-in-drag

Hollering & stomping and demanding

For... more and! better WAR!

No matter if

Illegal,

Undeclared,

Unjustified

(... as per Aquinas )

Or, Christ Disgusted, now,

Contrary to merest, meanest

Of "civilized behavior,"

Pre-emptive.

IMHO.

[... ah, the Philospher Kings

diminish, dwindle, become as anethema, and

appear to be nearing... negative numbers ]

[hellraiser]

Or at least give piss a chance

[Desert Dave]

Or at least give piss a chance

LOL, yah,

6 and 1/2 billion and geometrically counting,

Might be our last hope

For some decent manna.

Same as how the Vikings did

On them lengthy long-boat predator raids

On old Europe, Paris even, back when,

And that's where, incidentally,

The word "beserker" originated.

[... 'course, the Vikes added a little

herbal essence to the mixture, LOL!]

Not enough clean, non-disease

Corrupted water to go around... soon, eh?

Then!

What of the all them "idealistic" Lennons!

Still playing in beer-hall cellars

In Hamburg I guess

(... where the home brew, at least

would be potable, if not palatable)

[ May 15, 2006, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[hellraiser]

"Hollering & stomping and demanding

For... more and! better WAR!"

Killing has always been the best way for a society to progress Think of all the civilian applications of the techs used initially by the army.

In a world without war there ain't no room for strategy games and that's bad for my spare time You want Hubert to make Barbie games?

'killing is my business and business is good' - Megadeth

[Desert Dave]

Killing has always been the best way for a society to progress

Yep, the Lizard Brain

Remains.

Right 'er where it alway was. :eek:

Covered over a little, yet

Cerebral Cortex is about as effective

As Freud's posited Ego,

Or better, and more appropriately,

The "Super Ego,"

Which, as we know, inter-mediates

'Tween enfant terrible ID,

And "nurtured normalization,"

Ah,

GREAT! Ain't it?

How very many theses

(... can NEVER be FULLY tested!)

Exist in our quick-cindering

Little planet, eh? LOL!

Besides, nobody said "self-defense"

Was to be denied, not

Even my old pal T Aquinas.

I would only hope belligerence might be applied

At smaller and ever tinier scales,

As NECESSARY.

Could give you examples from my own experience,

But,

Many would likely object to!

The outright and blatant

Non-Lennon, non-pacifist

Examples... see,

You can't EVER get away with nuthin'

Since none of us are made

The same way.

Free will!

Good, and a'times - horrendous. LOL!

[LampCord]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organist:

Kriegsmarine.

the naval protection for the invasion would be provided by 1 heavy cruiser (Admiral hipper), 3 light cruisers (Nurnberg, Koln, Emden) and 7 destroyers.

...

the RN:

Western approaches had 1 cruiser and 23 destroyers

another 5 destroyers were at each of Portsmouth and Dover.

Nore command had 3 cruisers and 7 destroyers at Humber, 9 destroyers at Harwich and a Cruiser and 3 destroyers at Sheerness on the south bank of hte Thames

On the Tyne was a cruiser and 12 destroyers.

The rest of the Home Fleet was 5 battleships, 3 cruisers andf 9 destroyers at Scapa, 2 cruisers at Rosyth, and hte a/c carrier Argus at Iceland.

...

It was even more one sided than I had imagined! Sounds like the Germans would have been utterly destroyed.

That makes the fact that its a layup in the game even more ahistoric and problematic, IMHO.

[Rolend]

Yep navy power and its use is just under played in SC 2. It seems to do a fine job with most everything else but navy power and amphib opps seem to need some work.

[Desert Dave]

It was even more one sided than I had imagined! Sounds like the Germans would have been utterly destroyed.

That makes the fact that its a layup in the game even more ahistoric and problematic, IMHO.

Assuming SO's deployments are accurate,

I don't know,

Would have to double-check, anyway,

IF they are,

THEN... wouldn't that VERY clearly indicate?

That the UK took See Lowe threat

Quite seriously?

Well,

You'd rather have it... NOT possible,

At all? :eek:

Or,

More like a "what-if,"

As is requested in so many

Other areas.

What if?

It were a moonless night.

What if?

GErmans planned so awful assiduously

They selected time & place

Of absolute! surprise!

What if?

They used VAST numbers of newly trained

Airborne and glider troops?

What if?

The subs and assorted Kriegsmarine,

Large and small,

Performed such a perfect storm

Of screening and not only that!

But,

What if?

They risked everything!

And had every single torpedo dive bomber

Ready and raring to go?

As with many other of these apparently

Troublesome aspects,

Best to wait until first patch is out

BEFORE drawing definitive conclusions.

[Rolend]

The thing is DD that is EXACTLY what Germany would of had to do, risk everything, to pull it off. There did not seem to be a big enough pay off for that risk, after all they considered England out of the war any way. The Germans figured on taking out Russia in the first year, so what was left of England was a minor problem to them. Had they seen how Russia was going to play out then maybe they go all out against England, take N Africa and force England out of the war.

Of course delaying the attack on Russia by a year would not of helped either. Lets face it, their only real hope was to try and keep France and England from coming into the war when they invaded Poland thus allowing Hitler to invade Russia in 40. If only Poland had not been in the way of what Hitler realy wanted LOL.

[Lars]

Well, there was always the option of not invading Russia, something you're forced to do in SC.

Sealion could have been a go, given time.

[Desert Dave]

The thing is DD that is EXACTLY what Germany would of had to do, risk everything, to pull it off.

And, Rolend, EXACTLY

What you and I, as game players should

HAVE to do... risk

The whole shooting match.

I suspect that's what we WILL finally have,

Then all is said and done.

IE, after first patch; maybe, if needed

Second one anyway. :cool:

See Lowe as the ultimate GErman risk.

With appropriate cost

Should it fail.

The rest of your analysis seems

About right to me, as well.

VERY much fun to "speculate" about this

LAST of the "conventional weapon,"

All-world encompassing wars.

I don't think I can count HIGH enough,

The veritable library upon library

Of history books written about it,

Nor do I think

We will EVER exhaust all topics

On this, or any WW-2 board.

Thing is, there are so many reference points,

And so many "interpretations"

That I would insist,

No ONE explanation can tidily and completely

Explain any ONE aspect of the war.

[Miska]

My humble opinion is that amphibious assault ships must construct like subs and other naval vessels.

If i remember correct Operation Anvil was delayed because of allied needed their amphibious ships in normandy.

In present system you can make amphibious assaults when you want where ever you want almost free.

Just makes amphibious assaults too easy and cheap.

[Exel]

Originally posted by Lars:

Well, there was always the option of not invading Russia, something you're forced to do in SC.

It wasn't an option. Had the Germans not invaded first, the Russians would have. USSR simply wasn't ready in 1941, but given time they would have come over the border.

[Guest Mike]

The Russians just DOW'ed me in November 1940 using the allied AI mod!!

DD the British certainly took the threat of invasion seriously - they were convinced it would happen, and there are still block houses and pill boxes scattered around the south of England to show for it.

as a measure of how far they went they found that Kentish men were not ruthless enough to blow up infrastructure, so used men from other areas of England for their stay-behind/sabotage teams there.

Of course the British did not know a lot of the problems the Germans had - they did not know the state of damage or working up of the ships that were not available. they did not know how weak the Luftwaffe actualy was in strategic terms, and they did not know that the Germans planned to take 4 days to offload their first wave - providing them with sitting duck targets.

[Lars]

Originally posted by Exel:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lars:

Well, there was always the option of not invading Russia, something you're forced to do in SC.

It wasn't an option. Had the Germans not invaded first, the Russians would have. USSR simply wasn't ready in 1941, but given time they would have come over the border. </font>

[SeaMonkey]

Have to agree with Lars here, the propensity of evidence does not support the conclusion.

Like DD refers to, lots of perspectives, profuse speculation abounds.

I'll submit that Stalin actually thought of Hitler as a sort of "Brother of Ideology". Both with a deep commital to new ideas of controlling social order. Both visionaries with similar concepts, yet skewed with the details of attainment.

Let's not forget they started out as allies.

[Exel]

Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was purely politics. Both sides knew an clash of arms would be eventual, but both also wanted to buy time. Red Army wasn't ready for war in 1941, let alone in 1939. Stalin and Hitler certainly didn't consider each other "brothers of ideology", rather arch enemies. That's why the world was so shocked about their alliance. It was only a matter of time before the two would turn on each other - and they raced to be prepared. The Germans got there first.

[Lars]

You still haven't provided any backing for your statement.

Hitler could have easily fortified his border with Russia and Stalin could have done the same. The pact between them worked well to both their mutual advantage, so I could easily see a better scenario for them co-existing if Adolph had decided Poland and France were just as good for current lebensraum needs and stayed out of a two front war.

And as you say, the Russian army of '41 was in no way comparable to what it became later. After having 35,000 officers and 850,000 Party members purged in the late 30's, I think Stalin would have been seriously nuts to go in front of the remainder and the Party and tell them he's going to take on the pre-eminent military power of the day with a defunct, demoralized army and ten percent of his workforce sitting in concentration camps.

Can you say coup? I think you can.

[guinty1]

Originally posted by Miska:

My humble opinion is that amphibious assault ships must construct like subs and other naval vessels.

If i remember correct Operation Anvil was delayed because of allied needed their amphibious ships in normandy.

In present system you can make amphibious assaults when you want where ever you want almost free.

Just makes amphibious assaults too easy and cheap.

ive just finished reading the war diary of FM Alan Brooke (basicaly the guy that really ran the UK war),and he mentions lack of shipping and primarly landing craft numerous times as a major problem in the med and leading up to d-day,i would go as far to say that it was his no.1 problem after 1943 (according to his diary).so fo r germnay to suddenly pull out of the hat enough landing vessels in 1940 to land x amount armies ,corps and panzers is as unreal as 3 carriers not sinking a damn italian cruiser (yet 22 ancient torpedo bombers nearly wiped out the fleet in port for real flying off a carrier).

[Fire]

I know that there are documents that prove that there was an attack planed on Germany. I dont have the motivation to search for it but Google may help.

Fireball