Soviet losses in ww2

[Desert Dave]

Scapegoat of the day

Is, it would seem? Catholics,

Again?

LOL.

I remember when I was down

At North Fort Polk, Loosianner,

Circus 1966 it was,

Doing my AIT,

For God and Country,

You know how it goes?

Ah, "Tiger Land"

It was AKA,

Where you'd go to the Armorer each day

(... he was an irascible Puerto Rican,

if that means anything? THEY been

scape-goated of late? LOL!)

And he'd grudgingly hand out

That dulled black plastic

M-16 Mattel Toy, and then

You'd thrash around them forested swamps

All the foetid day long,

And at last, turn that practise MG in

Once done with the exercises?

Anyway,

One night I got loose from the Cats

What wore them Smokey Bear hats?

Had black & orange slashed Cav patches?

Were usually about 20 or 22 yrs old?

Just me on leave,

And... my Canon camera, in case

I should want

Some priceless item for - rembrance

Of things past,

A'la Proust sans the padded room,

[... actually I grew up mostly

down South, so I already KNEW the lay

of the land, the way of the unforgiving]

And so,

I came upon this huge old antebellum

Sort of house by side of the road,

Musta been owned by a Banker

Or Politico or the local

White-lightning Capitaliser, well,

You couldn't actually see the house

From the sidewalk,

Just this long paved drive-way,

But it did have a HUGE! rolling expanse

Of deep green grasses

And fragrant shrubs

And flowers of every imaginable kind! :cool:

All tres tres charming.

Although... there WAS this

One little expertly printed sign

That bothered me, oh,

For about... 20 seconds, since I don't

Actually worry much over what somebody

Else,

Says is dogma,

Or believes to be de rigeur. .

Anyhow,

Firmly staked-out Sign said:

_________________________________

"All Yankee soldiers,

And Black Cats,

And Pope-lovers,

And Dogs also,

KEEP OFF THE GRASS!"

_________________________________

True story, I got the PIC

In a box here to home.

Ya just gotta luv it, ain't ya?

How we can be, here in America,

Land of the mighty

Brave & Free,

Then they safe at a distance,

Anyway,

And yet... don't seem to me

Things have changed all that much

In the 40 years since them

Ragin' 'Gator Days, nope,

Different medium, is all.

[dicedtomato]

During World War II, a woman who lived outside an Army base in Mississippi decided to hold a Thanksgiving dinner for the soldiers. She called the base and spoke to a young lieutenant.

"You can send over a dozen soldiers," she said. "Just make sure that none of them are Jewish."

"No problem, ma'am," said the officer.

On Thanksgiving Day, the woman heard a knock on the door. She opened it, and saw a dozen black soldiers on her porch.

"What are you doing here?" she cried.

"Lieutenant Goldberg told us to come."

Diced Tomato

[Cary]

And so I say it once again:

As said in the past - ANYONE who bombs

Non-combatants,

With ANY kind of explosive, incendiary

Or other death-dealing device,

SHOULD be prosecuted as a war criminal,

NO exceptions.

I must ask you: how is it

That I don't know what

I am talking about? :confused:

Would that it could be so. But what about those who build the devices, or pay to buy them?

Or do we get out of that conspiracy by saying that we're all combatants...

But you're right, we've gone far wrong if we can't stop to listen to that point -- at least to wonder at our laminate rationalizations.

"You can send over a dozen soldiers," she said. "Just make sure that none of them are ...."

Similar story floating around about a passenger on British Airways. One hopes that at least some of these stroies are true.

I guess the sad irony is that German POWs on work details in the South were still entitled to ride in the front of the bus. Imagine the rage if you were a black soldier pushed to the back.

[ July 16, 2006, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Cary ]

[Desert Dave]

The history of us,

Is an almost unfathomable tapestry.

We are each one stitch thereon.

How on Earth

To make great sense of it... all?

It is not to be precisely located

In ANY History Book,

No matter how well documented.

Anecdote,

Wive's Tales,

What is told by an Idiot,

A rampant animal etched on a coat

Of Arms.

Go with yer gut, intuition,

What occurs to you in dreams.

Things are never, ever what they seem.

Very nice (... apocryphal? No matter)

Story, Diced Ice. :cool:

There are two quotes I have

Written on my gaming-room wall,

Verbatim, quite literally.

The first, by a man I greatly admire,

Have read over & over again,

A Hero for the Ages:

___________________________________

"How ridiculous and unrealistic is the man who is astonished at anything that happens in life."

-- Marcus Aurelius, Roman Emperor

___________________________________

The second, also a man of honor

And much wisdom, IMO:

_____________________________________

"In Germany they first came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me - and by that time no one was left to speak up."

-- Pastor Martin Niemoller, Dachau, 1944

___________________________________________

Well, everybody has their own inspirations.

Each is equal to anybody else's.

And so it goes and goes.

[ July 16, 2006, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[Desert Dave]

Would that it could be so. But what about those who build the devices, or pay to buy them?

Conscious decision by the "peace makers,"

Which, one hopes,

Will soon enough out-number the thugs.

IE, don't buy them.

Naive?

Probably,

But having helped run a very successful

Business for over 10 years,

I do know this much:

Nobody buys yer stuff,

You shutter the doors and make something

That is appealing.

Or do we get out of that conspiracy by saying that we're all combatants...

Self defense is ever justified.

Determining exactly how that applies

Is another matter.

Simple when some goons break down yer door

And brandish weapons

And demand their brutal due.

Knock 'em down,

HOWEVER you got to.

It wasn't until WW-2 that this whole notion

Of "terror" from the skies commenced.

Once Pandora's Box

Hath been opened, well, next time

It is MUCH easier to rationalize,

And in the process,

Come up with clever yet awful euphemisms

Such as: "collateral damage."

A return to Code of Honor,

Among men,

Among Nations,

Would be ideal.

Gonna happen?

Now, these ever more (... apparently)

Desparate times?

Probably not.

But you're right, we've gone far wrong if we can't stop to listen to that point -- at least to wonder at our laminate rationalizations.

Well, Cary,

I am right ... for me.

What you, or the next guy deems righteous,

Is not for me to say,

UNLESS,

Their credo or "book of instruction" impinges

On long-standing,

Hard-earned tenets of "law & order."

Who wants Chaos?

Return to the Jungle?

Really?

We have evolved to this point

Mostly due to refinement

Of the Cerebral Cortex.

We can only continue to evolve, IMHO,

With apt integration

Of BOTH the "religious impulse"

AND the "rational" didactum.

Neither, all alone,

Will do, though, as now,

Far too many suppose that one or the other

Is enough.

It isn't,

Won't EVER be.

BTW, greatly appreciate your documented

Sourcing,

Your elegant use of the language

Especially,

Not to mention some

VERY original & creative thinking.

[ July 16, 2006, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[dicedtomato]

Attacking non-combatants began in the Age of the Mastodons, not the Flying Fortresses. The first time that Joe Neanderthal killed Jim Neathanderal, and grabbed Jane Cavewoman as booty, meant that civilians would be in the firing line.

Only dreamers, armchair generals (most wargamers belong to that pseudo-martial category) and techno-fetishists could believe in clean war. Maybe in outer space, but not on Earth, where conflict inevitably means someone's crops will be trampled, their livelihood curtailed, their way of life disrupted.

Perhaps that's not such a bad thing. It means that modern war is democratic. All of us are involved, so we can't fold our arms and cry, "It's not MY war. It's THEIR war."

Diced Tomato

[Blashy]

The sad thing dice, technology does not make it so everyone is involved.

Imagine how US citizens would feel about the Iraq conflict if they were loosing as many civilians as Iraq is loosing because of US long range weapons.

People are not folding their arms, they just don't care because it has virtually no effect on them.

[dicedtomato]

Depends on how you look at it, Blashy. The Western nations have gone with volunteer militaries, so the direct impact of Iraq is less than WWII or Vietnam. But Americans are conscious of terrorism, which is a form of unconventional warfare. The lesson nowadays is that no one is immune from the effects of conflict.

Diced Tomato

[88mm]

Democracy today, isn't the Democracy like it used to. To me, it's a tool, misused by the capitalist. Capitalism, rules today. Money have the power :-(

[Retributar]

The Rich---Rule this World for their personal benefit! [Money have the power], Rule by the Rich = 'Autocratic Rule',...Rule by Corporations = Corporate Rule = Fascist Rule...both are closely related!.

The Rich get the BIG TAX Break's, the poor pay for those Tax Breaks. Its NOT 'Democracy' is it???,...probably more like 'Demonocracy'!.

[Liam]

All this political Talk ::smiles:: I like it, sadly none of us do jack **** about it come poll time

We elect 3 guys to be President they all are pretty worthless, We put Arnie Swarzenburger in as a Friggin Mayor? Senator? Hell, I don't even know, I do know I am likely as educated and as suited to the job as the man. To top it all off, my own President speaks worse English than Arnie! "Colonascapy?" I could probably create a better foreign policy than George Bush, and that my friends is what is sad about the USA today..

As far as the rest of the World, sorry but I don't have much more confidence, I haven't seen much better. Whatever has happened is just pathetic

P.S. Remebers watching a memorial for the lost Soldiers of the Red Army during the liberation of Poland not too long ago on C-Span. Polack President giving the Ruskie one all sorts of Praise. Hmmm, me wonders who killed more Poles, Germans or Reds? The Hypocrisy of it ghouls and fiends, the Hyopcrisy. The World needs help..

((( Revolution ))) for what? you don't deserve it

~Liam

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by Fartknock3r:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Cap:

They should just use the middle east as a nuclear testing ground!

Pave em all and let God sort them out!

Whats so wrong with the people living in the middle east? </font>

[Fartknock3r]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organist:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Fartknock3r:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Cap:

They should just use the middle east as a nuclear testing ground!

Pave em all and let God sort them out!

Whats so wrong with the people living in the middle east? </font>

[Liam]

Without Oil, the MiddleEast would be like North America without Water.. Unsettled, and undesired and the locals would still be primitive. Only reason why the Locals have any history, tech and knowledge is from another Era when it was not but sand and stone and rest assured in one century it'll be all Sand and stone again. Not only is the Smart West getting cheap energy it's also selling them it's archaic weapondry

Originally posted by Stalin's Organist:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Fartknock3r:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Cap:

They should just use the middle east as a nuclear testing ground!

Pave em all and let God sort them out!

Whats so wrong with the people living in the middle east? </font>

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Liam:

P.S. Remebers watching a memorial for the lost Soldiers of the Red Army during the liberation of Poland not too long ago on C-Span. Polack President giving the Ruskie one all sorts of Praise. Hmmm, me wonders who killed more Poles, Germans or Reds? The Hypocrisy of it ghouls and fiends, the Hyopcrisy. The World needs help..

Liam, don't you count the jewish citizens in Poland as beeing polish? They sure were.

[stanhope]

If Usa is so bad, why are they so many people trying to get here and start a new life. Granted I wish we could live in a world where people could live in peace and comfort. But you have those out there who want to controls others. Treat there woman as property, we did abolish slavery here. And I live in the south. I support Isarel and there right to live in peace. But that won't happen either with the dum s**ts living around them. I do enjoy visiting Eroupe, but it's only there past I enjoy. I wish the US would get out of the UN, It's a joke. And I do get tired of our boys dieing to help out 3rd world countries. It's hard to feel bad for those in Africa or here in the states dieing of Aids, just keep it in your pants. And I never have figued out why when some of the Victors when, it's rape and steal everthing they can. Personally I am proud of our Military and the way most handle themselves. But I some times wonder if I was there would I be as humble there. Since you can see your buddies killed by men who have no right to be considered soldiers but as murderers and cowards. I work with my hands and enjoyed what I worked for. As far as blaming indivuals. One should blame the dead heads who follow these guys. These leaders are not voted for, they take there power with power. There are several ways of dieing, but you should be able to die in a honorable way. I do not wish to insult any on this forum. So if I do I will apology for that. But get rid of the bashing. Last note, we are a rich country, but we made it with people from other countries with nothing but grit to make something.

[Liam]

Ahmen, and I'm not even fully American, I'm Limey mix. Both very bold nations, my little Nothing carved itself an Empire out of trade and diplomacy (and and an awesome navy) now they were some imperialistic types but a nation will take Power, like a little boy grows, so does a Nation.. It consumes more and becomes big and strong (Mature) sad thing is when that boy turns bad and inevitably in history that will happen.. Germany for instance, Russia, France, etc...

The USA has more people wanting to move here than any other nation on Earth. I tell you, I'd love to goto Germany, if I had the money, I can't afford it though. They've got a great scene for my lifestyle! Perhaps one day I shall and when I do I will learn German and enjoy the richness of history, natural beauty and culture. Which Europe has, which the USA in places lacks, sadly.. It has some but it's a little young I'm afraid. The architecture here isn't quite as grand and ancient.

People shouldn't knock this nation without facts. I had a Belgian on here, telling me how Holier than now Belgium was and that there was never a Colonial Belgium who aided to the Rwanda Massacres, he didn't even know of his own countries history, talking down the USA... LOL I do not point fingers as I know Man is Man, no matter what nation. The USA was made by idealists the best of the best, Elite. Sadly, since the bar has fallen and I look at myself and I realize being caught between two Great Powers (one now that the sun has finally set on) it's the individual that should make the difference. Should step up, not the nation. We shouldn't be judged for Our Nations actions when it's a hypocritical statement, for individuals we do not have that much of a choice.

As far as the War in Iraq and in other Arab States, it has actually given those countries more freedom than ever. Most of the death and carnage since the Main Wars has been caused by their own Fanatics. Problem is they are not doing anything with this new found freedom, They're despots sadly and will fall into chaos and disorder more than likely an oversight by our Government and even my by myself who I actually see a bit more educated than my own Government when it comes to what will happen with things

that part is sad, they are actually finding Weapons of Mass Destruction? Maybe you Euros need to kick the U.N.s ass into making a change instead of watching Massacres? When Americans do decide to Move, they are total and undeniably, they make change... of course noone is perfect

Originally posted by stanhope:

If Usa is so bad, why are they so many people trying to get here and start a new life. Granted I wish we could live in a world where people could live in peace and comfort. But you have those out there who want to controls others. Treat there woman as property, we did abolish slavery here. And I live in the south. I support Isarel and there right to live in peace. But that won't happen either with the dum s**ts living around them. I do enjoy visiting Eroupe, but it's only there past I enjoy. I wish the US would get out of the UN, It's a joke. And I do get tired of our boys dieing to help out 3rd world countries. It's hard to feel bad for those in Africa or here in the states dieing of Aids, just keep it in your pants. And I never have figued out why when some of the Victors when, it's rape and steal everthing they can. Personally I am proud of our Military and the way most handle themselves. But I some times wonder if I was there would I be as humble there. Since you can see your buddies killed by men who have no right to be considered soldiers but as murderers and cowards. I work with my hands and enjoyed what I worked for. As far as blaming indivuals. One should blame the dead heads who follow these guys. These leaders are not voted for, they take there power with power. There are several ways of dieing, but you should be able to die in a honorable way. I do not wish to insult any on this forum. So if I do I will apology for that. But get rid of the bashing. Last note, we are a rich country, but we made it with people from other countries with nothing but grit to make something.

[Liam]

I'm hogging this topic, with BS rofl, but it's fun... it's an off topic situation now

As far as Polish Jews, I do not count that as I put them in a seperate category.. as Gypsies and Homosexuals-handicapped. What the Third Reich Considered less than Human even less than Slav. God Forbid being in that category..that accounts for a good 9 million or so exterminated. Hell, much of the Nazi Hierarchy was mentally handicapped by Proffesional standards Including Adolf Hitler with a severe case of Manic Depression

Originally posted by Kuniworth:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Liam:

P.S. Remebers watching a memorial for the lost Soldiers of the Red Army during the liberation of Poland not too long ago on C-Span. Polack President giving the Ruskie one all sorts of Praise. Hmmm, me wonders who killed more Poles, Germans or Reds? The Hypocrisy of it ghouls and fiends, the Hyopcrisy. The World needs help..

Liam, don't you count the jewish citizens in Poland as beeing polish? They sure were. </font>

[Kuniworth]

Oh Gee great post Stanhope.

No one ever said the USA is a bad country. Quite the opposite, that's why people are critical cause they know this land got potential to be even better.

Without the UN there will be the survival of the fittest again. True the US will be able to defend it's economical interests as always but the rest will be up to the strongest countries. War of Agression will subsuquently be allowed and there will be no one there to assure people's right to their land as stated in the Public International Law.

Just beacause the UN are frustrating is no good reason to abolish the only global political arena there are and that in some sense offer common rules and laws for Nations to follow. We need UN more than ever in a time where resources need to be used more economically than before, the environment need general agreements and measures to be taken to reduce earth's growing population.

[Guest Mike]

Saying the UN shold be abolished 'cos you disagree with it is pretty much as clever as saying your Govt should be abolished if you happen to disagree with it - do you think Democrats in hte US should be calling for the abolition of the Presidency because it is currently being held by a Republican?

There's such a thing as "loyal opposition" after all!

[Slapaho]

I live in Europe and its great

This is thanks to the USA, Russia and Britain. People say 'thats history though, its different today'. No its not - its still their soldiers fighting and dieing in numbers to protect a bunch of whining crying light weights who would surrender to their own shadow. The level of sacrifice is never hopefully going to be on the same scale of the USA, British and especially the Russians in ww2, but someone has to do the fighting and as usual, there are those that do it and those that dont. You can talk of blame, circumstances, leaders and despots, but the world is a sh1tty place and people should remember who the real bad guys are.

[Fartknock3r]

Originally posted by Slapaho:

I live in Europe and its great

This is thanks to the USA, Russia and Britain. People say 'thats history though, its different today'. No its not - its still their soldiers fighting and dieing in numbers to protect a bunch of whining crying light weights who would surrender to their own shadow. The level of sacrifice is never hopefully going to be on the same scale of the USA, British and especially the Russians in ww2, but someone has to do the fighting and as usual, there are those that do it and those that dont. You can talk of blame, circumstances, leaders and despots, but the world is a sh1tty place and people should remember who the real bad guys are.

who?

[Ottosmops]

Originally posted by Fartknock3r:

who?

Yes, who are the bad guys?

Certainly not Hamas, Ahmadinejad or George W.

They are all democratically elected.

Or is there a fault in the system?

[Fartknock3r]

Originally posted by Ottosmops:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Fartknock3r:

who?

Yes, who are the bad guys?

Certainly not Hamas, Ahmadinejad or George W.

They are all democratically elected.

Or is there a fault in the system? </font>

[Kuniworth]

Eh Hamas is not a single individual like Cheese Panzer.