Soviet losses in ww2

[jon_j_rambo]

Locking this up guys. You all know where I stand. Much as I want to jump this pot & stir, I won't.

Back to SC,

-Legend

[Kuniworth]

Ah as expected just some babling about terrorism nothing about the promise of a palestinian state.

And I see that no one answered my question how come USA think it's right that Israel keeps occupying more and more of land that were declared by USA and others to be Palestinian.

I ask again;

Should Public international law be followed by Israel yes or no?

If that is a No, gentlemen, then you seriously should consider what you want to replace it with - anarchy?

If that is a Yes, then USA should force Israel to withdraw from occupied land and let the palestinians have their state and 2. continue to support Israel's right to defend itself. That would be fair and the children at Gaza would at least not die for contamination.

Or what is your alternative? Status quo until someone drops a nuclear bomb on Haifa and Tel Aviv? Maybe you think it's ok at it is today? Well present something new then, this stuff US been pullin has not contributed a bit to peace for 60 years.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by dicedtomato:

Kuniworth asks why Israel ignores the U.N. This is the same U.N. that is dominated by such champions of human rights as Syria and Zimbabwe. Its compassion for Israel was eloquently expressed by the 1975 resolution that declared Zionism (the desire for the Jewish people to have their own nation) as racism.

Well I take it as UN resolutions, agreements of 1948 on Israeli-borders and above all the Public International Law is not things you like.

So what do we replace it with? Single countries on the rampage?

[Rolend]

I am with Rambo on this I am out but I will take a parting shot.

The UN???? Pffftttt Like I give a hoot what a totally corrupt, anti-American orgnazation says or does and yes the UN could go away tomorrow and frankly the world would be better off for it!!! LOL.

[jon_j_rambo]

Containing myself! (barely)

[Cary]

Kuniworth,

Large donations to PACs have been shown to change American policy -- talk to Beijing and Taipei. (I suppose the Europeans made a mistake in not funnelling some of the Marshall plan money back to congress....)

Inflammatory, or even reasoned debate seems far less effective. At least with the donations, you can direct it to the people who vote.

Eventually, of course, we may decide that our political system's permeability to foreign influence might be dangerous, but I suppose one uses the loopholes while they're there.

Originally posted by Rolend:

The UN???? Pffftttt Like I give a hoot what a totally corrupt, anti-American orgnazation says or does and yes the UN could go away tomorrow and frankly the world would be better off for it!!! LOL.

Would you prefer the League of Nations?

I really would avoid complaining about the UN given that we have the Security Council veto. Too many Americans complain too loudly and the Germans, the Japanese, and the Indians will want it as well. Or maybe that doesn't matter.

Of course, if it doesn't, how long before they decide that nukes and ICBMs are vital to their security as well?

... but here, as well as with Israel, we really are into current politics.

JJR: "Locking this up guys. You all know where I stand. Much as I want to jump this pot & stir, I won't."

/salute... with Israel, terrorism and the UN thrown in, I suspect one would stir the pot to keep it from boiling over. I imagine this baby can keep bubbling quite happily of its own accord.

[ July 14, 2006, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Cary ]

[Ottosmops]

Originally posted by Kuniworth:

And I see that no one answered my question how come USA think it's right that Israel keeps occupying more and more of land that were declared by USA and others to be Palestinian.

What right have “the USA and others” to declare land to the Palestinian?

What right had the British government in 1917 to declare land to the Jews?

Should Public international law be followed by Israel yes or no?

It depends.

If it serves their interests, yes, otherwise, no.

Status quo until someone drops a nuclear bomb on Haifa and Tel Aviv?

A Palestinian state is no guarantee that this will not happen.

The UN is neither a moral nor a legal authority. It is only a platform, where corrupt politicians can discuss their opinions.

But I slightly disagree with Roland here. I think it is better than nothing.

[ July 14, 2006, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: Ottosmops ]

[Andreas]

A minor point before this gets locked up. I am not belittling the Soviet contribution. It is clear that without it the western Allies would never have finished off the Germans. But at the same time, it was a team effort by all those involved. I think the Red Army would eventually have won, with or without an invasion, with or without the bombing campaign, with or without lend-lease. But remove any of these and it would have been even bloodier for the Soviets, if that is imagineable, and remove all and it gets difficult to imagine how they could have won it. But had they managed they would have had more of Europe under their thumb to show for it too.

All the best

Andreas

[Scrogdog]

Kuniworth, I'd like to address a few of your questions if I may. I don't post here very often, I prefer to read and learn. And while I consider myself more well read about WWII's Pacific Theatre, I'll try and give this one a shot. Not in defense of America, but in search of clarity of the situation.

Before I begin, I'd like to address the question posed; what right does Britain have to grant lands in Palestine? Why, the same rights that the Soviets and Allies had to divide up Germany. I'd also like to make clear that I am neither religious or Jewish. I am an American of Polish and English lineage, my family is Protestant... I am agnostic.

Whether or not you accept the bible as a religious work, it is still generally accepted that King David conquered Jerusalem around 1000 BC. David’s armies did not fight Muslims, but rather various tribes of Semitics, Hittites and Philistines. Many of the tribes were thought to originate in Mycenea, which were Greek settlements.

After that came conquests by the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Persians and Alexander the Great. After the death of Alexander, his generals divided the empire. One of them, Seleucus, controlled Palestine by about 200 BC. The practice of Judaism was allowed until Antiochus IV, tried to prohibit it. The Jews revolted and then founded a kingdom in Palestine with its capitol in Jerusalem which was recognized by Rome. Judah Maaccabee was made “friend of the Roman Senate and people” in 164 BC.

About 61 BC Roman troops under Pompei and in support of King Herod sacked Jerusalem. The land was then divided in to districts; Judea, Gallilee and Peraea. After that, Rome put down a couple of Jewish rebellions and finally, in 135 AD, Rome drove the Jews from Jerusalem renaming the area Palaestina.

Rome held these lands until about 300 AD then along came the Byzantine Empire. FINALLY, in 600 AD Muslim Arab armies moved North from Arabia under Caliph Umar and conquered most of what we know as the Middle East today.

Certainly, these were Jewish homelands WELL before the Arabs came. In fact, even Napoleon as early as 1799 supported the return (yes, I said the RETURN ) of the Jews to Palestine.

By about 1800, war with Napoleon and mismanagement by Ottoman leaders caused a fairly sharp decrease in population in the region. Both Arabs and Jews fled to better lands. In fact, Palestinian Arabs began to rebel against Egyptian and Ottoman rule. Many historians believe this was one catalyst for Palestinian national feelings.

Ultimately, the Ottomans corrected some of their issues and opened the borders of Turkey to immigration. They also began to allow limited immigration in to Palestine by the Jews.

In truth, even when exiled, the Jews never stopped coming to the holy lands. It was a mostly abstract relationship until what most people consider to be the rise of Zionism in the 1800s.

The first Zionist writings of note were written in 1840 by Rabbi Yehuda Alcalay in what is now Yugoslavia. While nearly forgotten works, these ideas began to take root among the European Jewish population. The French Revolution began the emancipation of European Jews, which in turn stimulated emigration of Jews to Palestine.

The Zionist movement formalized themselves as an organization in 1897 with the First Zionist Congress. They wished to establish a Jewish homeland under Turkish or German rule. Interestingly, they largely ignored concern over the Arab population… some of them even assuming that they would have no problems with relocating to other Arab lands. They thought the European Jews would swarm to Palestine and establish a clear majority.

By 1914, Palestinian population had grown to about 700,000, but only about 100,000 were Jews. The Ottoman Empire, rulers of Palestine at the time, allied themselves against the Allies in WWI. Cholera and Typhus hit both the Arab and Jewish populations hard. A Turkish military governor ordered the deportation of foreign nationals and a large number of Russian Jews fled Palestine.

By 1916 or so, Britain had become quite interested in Arabia. France and Britain had plans to split Ottoman holdings after the war as described in the Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916. Both the Germans and the British were courting Palestinian Arab AND Zionist support, both promising postwar independence from the Ottoman Empire.

In a letter to Sherif Husayn of Mecca, the British proposed Arab control over the whole of areas to be liberated from Turkey, except an area to the West of Syria defined as follows:

"The two districts of Mersina and Alexandretta and portions of Syria lying to the west of the districts of Damascus, Homs, Hama and Aleppo cannot be said to be purely Arab, and should be excluded from the limits demanded." … and some other minor concessions. The area was never very well defined. No authoritative maps were ever drawn up.

Because of the vague wording in the letter, both Jewish and Arab contentions of what was actually said could be supported. Indeed, both sides have produced maps that seem to show that the letter makes their case for them. However, a few things about the Arab position should be noted. The letter DOES clearly state that the excluded areas “cannot be said to be purely Arab”. Further, the British undertaking to protect holy places would hardly have been necessary if Palestine were not one of the excluded lands. This seems a pretty clear indication as well that the British had no intent to give Palestine to the Arabs wholly.

Unfortunately, the Sykes-Picot Agreement, the letter and the Balfour Declaration definitely have conflicting wording.

[jon_j_rambo]

@S-Dog --- Very nicely shared, that secular, agnostic information. If you want to get to the root of the land grant, you need to start further back. If you want to read about the first military battle over that land, you need to read the Book. If you want to read about the last military battle there, you need to read the Book. The battle has already been fought, the victory is won, yet it hasn't happened yet Also the method of battle isn't quite with tanks.

[Scrogdog]

I have read the Book, Brother Rambo. I just have not studied it as much as you have.

[jon_j_rambo]

@S-Dog --- Your write up was nicely done Obviously you have acute interest in this genre.

[Cary]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

@S-Dog --- Very nicely shared, that secular, agnostic information. If you want to get to the root of the land grant, you need to start further back. If you want to read about the first military battle over that land, you need to read the Book. If you want to read about the last military battle there, you need to read the Book. The battle has already been fought, the victory is won, yet it hasn't happened yet Also the method of battle isn't quite with tanks.

You mean the book that turned up in Palmyra, New York?

[jon_j_rambo]

@Cary --- LOL That's the funniest one liner I've heard in awhile!

[Cary]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

@Cary --- LOL That's the funniest one liner I've heard in awhile!

.. thanks... glad you took it that way.

[jon_j_rambo]

That's why I'm a Legend. I doubt many will understand. Either way, somebody send this guy a Camp Rambo T-Shirt and rack 'em!

[Yogi]

@Kuniworth, I'm curious. I have a question or two about your forum behavior.

1) I have seen you edit other peoples quotes when you reply putting your own words into their post. Sometimes it seems it is done for humor,(in fact your version of one of mine was quite funny) but perhaps you have other reasons as well?

2) I note that you at times go back and edit out some of your own offensive remarks and insults. Is this to fool the moderators? Or perhaps because you know you were out of line?

Seriously, I'm curious. You have many good posts, but have a tendancy to go off the deep end at times. If you are going to go on tirades with your comments, either keep them there so all can see what you do, or apologize when you remove them.

[Kuniworth]

What is going on here? Some kind of gay(=happy) hugging party?

Play some games instead of petting each others back all the time.

[Fartknock3r]

Ugh, I HATE politics......

[Liam]

Actually when you look at the way that Russians deported, executed, treated POWs, all human life during World War II. That is why I would come to that conclusion. The one resource the Russians had the Germans didn't have at the outbreak of war at least, was numbers and that stood strong throughout. You say to me they didn't use that advantage to the fullest, taking immense casaulties? Having firing squads shoot them if they should attempt to retreat for a Frontal Assualt on a suicide Position?

As far Cold War losses, I know the US spent a hundred thousand dead between two Asian Communist Regimes. That is the Figure, I believe the Soviet losses much more Great. She is now a BackBroken Democracy, begging her arch old enemy the West for aid, selling her women on the black market and arms to the highgest bidder, putting 12 year olds in Uniform in Chechnya, and doesn't give two ****s what the UN thinks. So before you go shouting against the West, I suggest you do your homework. I know some people, in particular my Girlfriend Rallying for Human Rights in the Former Soviet Union, recieving Threats on the the topic... They care very little about human life, as they wrote back my girlfriend His Excellency Putin threatening her in words that would be hmmmm, contrived as being passive threats... Bush and Putin could be bunk buddies at least my President doesn't sell his Children for war and sex. Comming off topic here a little, I though it's something some of you America Bashers needed to know!

Not saying I come from a Regime that isn't chasing Oil in the middle of Somewhere we don't belong either.. Everyone is doing it, that has the guns, the power and the knowhow?

Sorry to get a bit heated, but it's all true, everyone has their point but think on this, Russia sold 45 thousand girls into the sex trade, it's legal there to sell your daughter for sex, and the Police will back you up if you do it and punish anyone who says anything against it. At least Americans fight with their young men, almost boys.. Mostly poor..

It's a matter of Wealth isn't it all? You are all argueing but if you have privledge in society you do not suffer the way that you do if you do not have privledge, that is why Hitler was so successful, the oppressed German People wanted more for their Nation, at any price. They then got what they deserved for taking that too far.. If all the men and women of that nation had said, "No," he couldn't have continued a War. People need to stand up for what they believe in and talk less.. Then the World will change...

American losses... I gave you the figures... Start a War with the USA, so far what? 10 victories 1 stalemate I don't think there are many losses due to the fact our country isn't stupid and doesn't get involved where we know we'll lose a lot. It's not a bad idea.. Vietnam was a war of Popularity not of casualties, at any time the war would've been over, the Politicians feared letting the Generals do what they needed to do and the public was at the time smoking a lot of weed and fed up with spending lives and cash on a jungle in the middle of nowhere to be quite frank, I think America should stuff the Iraqi Democracy up the Arabs asses along with every other Arab nation, run a pipeline, suck it dry and give them Lexuses and BMWs, that's what they seem to want.. oh and add a few stinger missles so they can kill each other more efficiently, that's what the West has been doing for the past 30-45 years...

How many Red soldiers died for a good battle and how many died for a fools errand? Ask yourself this, and you can see in stark contrast how the USA and UK well planned their operations. To minimize casaulties, and even the Germans till Hitler the last vestinges of his sanity.

One American/British life was worth 5 to 10 Russian lives, because we valued it that much greater, and bit less for a German... ~Liam

As to this, catch Rambo in a bad mood and he might argue with you for implying that Americans are cowards who put too much value on their own skin.... I'll save my breath on that argument.

But have you any data on this? A comparison of Russian and American behavior in the Cold War doesn't really support your hypothesis: the U.S. seems quite willing to send boys to die for places like Kontum; at least given the casualty figures, the Soviets far less so. Granted, the Soviets are quite happy to spend North Korean, Vietnamese, or Chinese lives at a high discount, but that's not particularly a surprise.

Do you account for the fact that in World War II Soviets were dying at home, while "our boys" were dying abroad?

Can you give an estimate of the home-court discount on casualties?

I like the way that they refer to the Reds having bled the Germans white.

And finally... I detect a bit of sarcasm here, but wouldn't causing 4/5ths of the battle casualties the Germans suffered between 1941 and 12/44 count as bleeding the Germans white? I'd suggest leaving your PC fantasy-land to engage with facts. Granted, there's a little debate about the numbers Wiki used (Overman's), but it's at the margins and doesn't concern the ratio of losses between fronts. Further, the data is German -- ethnic stereotypes aside, the records are available and have been available for half a century, in contrast to the less-reliable soviet records. [/QB]

[Fartknock3r]

Originally posted by Liam:

I think America should stuff the Iraqi Democracy up the Arabs asses along with every other Arab nation,

People should be able to choose there own government, right?

[Cary]

Originally posted by Fartknock3r:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Liam:

I think America should stuff the Iraqi Democracy up the Arabs asses along with every other Arab nation,

People should be able to choose there own government, right? </font>

[Cary]

As to the value of human life: I've never been sure what to make of this poem, beyond a reminder to be somewhat humble about what nations and peoples spend their lives on.

Requiem for the Croppies

The pockets of our greatcoats full of barley...

No kitchens on the run, no striking camp...

We moved quick and sudden in our own country.

The priest lay behind ditches with the tramp.

A people hardly marching... on the hike...

We found new tactics happening each day:

We'd cut through reins and rider with the pike

And stampede cattle into infantry,

Then retreat through hedges where cavalry must be thrown.

Until... on Vinegar Hill... the final conclave.

Terraced thousands died, shaking scythes at cannon.

The hillside blushed, soaked in our broken wave.

They buried us without shroud or coffin

And in August... the barley grew up out of our grave.

-- Seamus Heaney

[ July 14, 2006, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: Cary ]

[Liam]

We've spent how many billions in an attempt to give them something beyond despotism? That's why gas is 3 -4 bucks a pop in the SouthEast and why we shall lose Social Security for our elderly, to give them a Free Society.. It's starting to get tedious, they don't want to be free bad enough. Look at the Isrealis, look what they've sacrificed for their freedom? Now that is a people I can actually admire..

Originally posted by Fartknock3r:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Liam:

I think America should stuff the Iraqi Democracy up the Arabs asses along with every other Arab nation,

People should be able to choose there own government, right? </font>

[Liam]

Cary, admiration for Poetry, commendable. Human life is an undervalued resource, less you're the one suffering.